Thread: The Ukraine situation

Once the US became, arguably, the Global Superpower post WWII the idea of isolationism became a non option. As was not being a permanent member of the UN Security Council a non option. That went with the territory of becoming the Superpower.

Bob

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The US has a rich history of isolationism, in fact many Americans wanted nothing to do with WW2, until Pearl Harbor which some say Roosevelt pushed Japan into, but that is even more conspiracy theory...
So to imply that the US saying "It is not our concern" is somehow un-American is simply not true, it is actually very American.

Yes, US also has a rich history of slavery and genocide. Usually on 4th of July americans celebrate the aspirations from the declaration of independence, the ideals that all human beings are created equal and injustices should be righted instead of looking the other way. That is why I didn't imply but explicitly stated that when one makes the choice to ignore the principles this country is supposedly founded upon it is un-american, regardless of how often the same choice has been made throughout the relatively short us history.

There are realities and what is possible, but there are also values and ideals to aspire to not just in big words on 4th of july.

Originally Posted by earcutter

Man - so after watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5CpgaEnCo

It seems the Canadians think this all about oil... sigh.

I duuno, my take from that is that oil and gas may be a background issue and one of the many reasons for renewed Russian expansionism under Putin. Certainly not the sole or possibly main reason.

Apparently there are also large/huge shale gas fields in the eastern Ukraine estimated to be the 3rd largest in Europe. That region of the Ukraine, I believe, was pro Russian in the last election.

Shale gas in Poland and Ukraine: a great potential and an uncertain future

Bob

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

There are many reasons for war. Money is only one of them. Often times it's about power and often times it's about hate.

War often seems to be the result when those who hate or lust for power convince the wealthy and powerful that there is money to be made.
Those ordinary folk who didn't pay attention in class, especially during history lessons, often facilitate the aspirations of the powerful.

Originally Posted by gugi

Yes, US also has a rich history of slavery and genocide. Usually on 4th of July americans celebrate the aspirations from the declaration of independence, the ideals that all human beings are created equal and injustices should be righted instead of looking the other way. That is why I didn't imply but explicitly stated that when one makes the choice to ignore the principles this country is supposedly founded upon it is un-american, regardless of how often the same choice has been made throughout the relatively short us history.

There are realities and what is possible, but there are also values and ideals to aspire to not just in big words on 4th of july.

George Washington

"The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities."



Once again you are interpreting US history incorrectly, isolationism is our history, only since WW2 have we become embroiled in world affairs...

Originally Posted by Bruno

Nah. Today's world is one of entanglement. The US is far too dependent on the rest to ride an isolationist course. Given that, the only choice the US could have made was to not become one of the inner circle UN members, and thus not be on the security council or have veto power in a body that includes pretty much all other countries.

Yet without the US military the UN would have probably become irrelevant long ago in fact many argue that they already are..

Originally Posted by BobH

Once the US became, arguably, the Global Superpower post WWII the idea of isolationism became a non option. As was not being a permanent member of the UN Security Council a non option. That went with the territory of becoming the Superpower.

Bob

I think your are speaking of an older US, we now have a President that wants no part of the Super Power status, you have a citizenry that is in agreement for two separate reasons

The left agrees with the president in that we should no longer be a superpower, and the right agrees that this president should not be in control of a super power...
The American people are pretty hesitant to be involved..
Sooner or later that message will get through to our politicians...
I see a future more like our past, with the US slowly dis-entangling from the world other then for trade, perhaps a US more concerned with only her problems rather then the rest of the world...

I have read most of this thread quickly so I could have missed it but I do not remember seeing any mention of an agreement that was signed between the Ukraine and the US, the British, Germany and others back under Clinton. The agreement was for us (collectively) to protect Ukraine's sovereignty in return for them dis arming themselves and I believe that it was the tri-lateral disarmament treaty.

What happened to that?

Will N.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think your are speaking of an older US, we now have a President that wants no part of the Super Power status, you have a citizenry that is in agreement for two separate reasons

The left agrees with the president in that we should no longer be a superpower, and the right agrees that this president should not be in control of a super power...
The American people are pretty hesitant to be involved..
Sooner or later that message will get through to our politicians...
I see a future more like our past, with the US slowly dis-entangling from the world other then for trade, perhaps a US more concerned with only her problems rather then the rest of the world...

I don't think it really matters what the US wants or it's president or the lefties or righties want. It is a case of tag you are it. That is until you shrink your military to the size of, say, ours and I don't see that happening. As long as The US has big global trading interests/ambitions and has to protect them there is little room for neo isolationism. Lastly there is the threat of terrorism to be dealt with globally.

Bob

Originally Posted by WillN

I have read most of this thread quickly so I could have missed it but I do not remember seeing any mention of an agreement that was signed between the Ukraine and the US, the British, Germany and others back under Clinton. The agreement was for us (collectively) to protect Ukraine's sovereignty in return for them dis arming themselves and I believe that it was the tri-lateral disarmament treaty.

What happened to that?

Will N.

The American and British treaty with the Ukraine brought to light - Wilmington Conservative | Examiner.com

Many links and tons of other opinions are already out there


here is the actual wording

https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenob...printMode=true