Thread: What is wrong with America

Originally Posted by gugi

A hundred and fifty years back it was moral to own other human beings and treat them as property (a view endorsed in the Bible).

The admonition by the Apostle Paul for slaves to obey their masters was to demonstrate the love of Christ within them and the transforming affect it has on the believer. Not to endorse the system of slavery that had been in effect since time immemorial.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

The admonition applied to the masters, if they were believers, as much as it did to the slaves. There being no point in trying to direct an unbeliever's behavior, as the Gospel is "Spiritually discerned, and foolishness unto him."

Being in a labor union I see both the good guys and the bums. Luckily with the sparse work in 11' and 12' most of the bums dropped their book. We still have a few in our local unfortunately but the don't see near the amount of work that the better men see. I can't speak for all unions and locals but I know being in a small local we pride ourselves with keeping up high standards and skilled men.

On the job I am on right now you can see the difference between union ironworkers and non union being we are on the same job. Union doing the rebar and non doing the structural. The non union company has fallen 2 months behind and has had 5 severe injuries in 4 months. Our guys doing the rebar are pushing the dirt and blasting companies harder to keep us going and are 6 weeks ahead of schedule. We currently have 2 weeks of work left and is not scheduled to be done until the 3rd week in January. Even though our complete pay package is $57 an hour including our benefits the general will make more from us than the non union guys whose hourly package is only $35 an hour.

I strongly believe a union is only as strong as its weakest member.

Originally Posted by gugi

From what I've seen the problem with unions is that they can become a shield for protecting incompetence.

I'm almost completely isolated from having to deal with such things but one time I had to hire union work for a very simple janitorial work. That cost $80/hour and they wanted 5 hours. It looked a bit steep, but in the grand scheme of things it wasn't a big deal - we paid far more overhead on that contract to people who did virtually nothing.
I don't have a problem paying the janitor good money to do good job - I would rather not see him struggling to feed his family or put a roof over their head.
I have problem only when the union workers deliver dodgy work and there is nothing that one can do about it.

Can't argue with that one bit. Having been in a union most of my working life and looking at what we had for supervision there seems to a problem there too in how people are picked for these company positions too. There seemed to be more than enough incompetency to go around on both sides. OTH both sides consisting of human beings that may or may not be too surprising. It sure does not take too many of these on both sides to make life miserable for the majority and ultimately for the consumer.

Bob

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Am way ahead of the tech curve,I don't even own a cell Phone

I didn't have one in my cell either!
~Richard

Originally Posted by Phrank

Something my father once told me.

"There are three ways to make money. 1) the old fashioned way, "to earn it". 2) The really, really old fashioned way, "to inherit it". And 3) The really, really, really old fashioned way, "to steal it."

,,,,,we've got a lot of really, really, really old fashioned people in South Florida

I used to be a Union Steward and when people give that old hash about Unions protecting incompetent workers you know what I tell em?

Unions don't hire and fire workers. That's managements job and if they are not doing it they are incompetent. Sure it makes it more difficult but too many managers just say well it's impossible and simply don't bother when the fact is if you have a good case against someone they are history and that includes the Govt where I worked.

In addition to that, you know we have a Criminal Justice System based on the theoretical premise that 1000 crooks go free so 1 innocent person doesn't go to prison for something he didn't do. It's the same here some crummy workers might remain on the job so a good one isn't railroaded by a boss who doesn't like they way he parts his hair or doesn't like his last name.

Originally Posted by meleii

I strongly believe a union is only as strong as its weakest member.

I was a union ironworker for 20 years doing all phases of the trade in a few different states, for many contractors, both large and small. One of our business agents was fond of saying, "I can get the job for you, but I can't keep it for you." Also, "All we have to sell is our labor." I've been hearing about 'featherbedding' and guys 'laying down' on union jobs all my life, but in my 20 years I was never on any of those jobs.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I was a union ironworker for 20 years doing all phases of the trade in a few different states, for many contractors, both large and small. One of our business agents was fond of saying, "I can get the job for you, but I can't keep it for you." Also, "All we have to sell is our labor." I've been hearing about 'featherbedding' and guys 'laying down' on union jobs all my life, but in my 20 years I was never on any of those jobs.

Because you have work ethics Jimmy,Just Like I do.any work is good work

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The admonition by the Apostle Paul for slaves to obey their masters was to demonstrate the love of Christ within them and the transforming affect it has on the believer. Not to endorse the system of slavery that had been in effect since time immemorial.

Jimmy, I was referring to the big picture. Sex and murder predate slavery but they are treated very differently in the biblical prescriptions for morals and punishments. It's only in the last 200 years that our societies decided that slavery is so reprehensible that it needs to be abolished completely.
On the other hand having sex with somebody else's wife is clearly labeled as so bad as to warrant death. Likewise for prostitution. But as we all know this particular morality has been ignored on massive scale from the moment it was first proscribed.

I simply do not see the basis for saying that there is a clear morality found in the Bible and our current societal issues are consequence of deviating from that standard.
It's not that I don't want to see it - if it were true life would be so much simpler and easy to fix - I just don't see the evidence. I see good people pick their morality from the Bible, I see bad people pick their morality from the Bible, I see good people pick their morality outside of the Bible and I see bad people pick their morality outside of the Bible.

So my view is that it's what the person picks that matters, not where they pick it from.

Just think of how much could/would be solved if everyone followed the 10 commandments. Not real complicated. Yet when you state any kind of Bible based wisdom to many today you are met with ridicule and disdain. Freedom of religion regardless of which one entails that you follow that value system in whole. The One God isnt a buffet where we get to pick and choose what principles we get to follow. there in lies half the problem. Picking a side and stay true to it , and on it. Yes I dont murder but I covet my neighbors wife and disrespect my parents is not going to pass the litmus test with God.