Thread: President of the US of A

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The biggest fear is that our enemies easily see that same thing as I do..

You've posted in the past that Putin is one of the biggest enemies - in light of this isn't his preference for Trump something to worry about?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

An old indian trick. (my apologies to any indians reading that)Claim something outrageous, cook up the truth and then make someone prove it didn't happen.

I'm not making any claims so I'm not needing to prove or disprove anything. It's up to those making the claims to prove the veracity of what they are claiming.

Thank you for stating the obvious rather crudely. wink wink

I did not say you claimed or disclaimed anything. I did not ask you to prove or disprove anything.

I merely ask what are some of the sources you would use.

Originally Posted by jmercer

Thank you for stating the obvious rather crudely. wink wink

I did not say you claimed or disclaimed anything. I did not ask you to prove or disprove anything.

I merely ask what are some of the sources you would use.

I'd do what I do now. I read and watch both right and left wing news programs and read both printed media and watch the typical news channels that are available. The internet is available if I want to research more.

Then I decide who to believe based on the FACTS.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

You have all the info you need to search it out and then from your searches you have to decide the truth

See the problem is that regardless of any info presented unless you go find it yourself so you can read all sides and perspectives you will not believe it anyway... I know I wouldn't

When somebody says something I just go look for myself

Originally Posted by jmercer

Thank you for stating the obvious rather crudely. wink wink

I did not say you claimed or disclaimed anything. I did not ask you to prove or disprove anything.

I merely ask what are some of the sources you would use.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I'd do what I do now. I read and watch both right and left wing news programs and read both printed media and watch the typical news channels that are available. The internet is available if I want to research more.

Then I decide who to believe based on the FACTS.

All of these three comments above are the reason I asked the question to begin with. I knew the answer before I asked. Where do we get the actual truth right now? My sense is we are all for the most part rational thinking humans who would prefer to base our decisions on the truth and nothing but the truth. I believe we would have a lot more common opinions if we could all trust where to get the truth. I mean one source.

It appears as if we can't even allow ourselves to find a source we can all trust (but verify). There is so much spin now on both sides of every issue (political or otherwise) that we can't even have a conversation to find common ground. How do you ever find common ground if we don't have a common source for the truth that we can all trust.

How do we get there? Is it even possible? What does it look like? The way I see it we're all locked in a death spiral of half truths, spin and outright lies from all direction. If we don't break this cycle and find a place to trust together we're all just a fly waiting for the windshield on the freeway ....... cue the organ.....

Originally Posted by Brenngun

My sense is we are all for the most part rational thinking humans who would prefer to base our decisions on the truth and nothing but the truth.

That's only how we like to think of ourselves, not how we make decisions. For a very long time (possibly forever) politics has been not about policies but about identities.

As far as how to change this and if it's possible, I'm not sure it can, certainly not on a short term scale. This thread and many others, specifically how many people behave, has confirmed it for me.

Originally Posted by Brenngun

All of these three comments above are the reason I asked the question to begin with. I knew the answer before I asked. Where do we get the actual truth right now? My sense is we are all for the most part rational thinking humans who would prefer to base our decisions on the truth and nothing but the truth. I believe we would have a lot more common opinions if we could all trust where to get the truth. I mean one source.

It appears as if we can't even allow ourselves to find a source we can all trust (but verify). There is so much spin now on both sides of every issue (political or otherwise) that we can't even have a conversation to find common ground. How do you ever find common ground if we don't have a common source for the truth that we can all trust.

How do we get there? Is it even possible? What does it look like? The way I see it we're all locked in a death spiral of half truths, spin and outright lies from all direction. If we don't break this cycle and find a place to trust together we're all just a fly waiting for the windshield on the freeway ....... cue the organ.....

It is all about money and power and common ground would eliminate much of that...

Just look at one single issue

Let's take Abortion..

There will never be a common sense solution and a legal statute set that will satisfy everyone,, see common sense tells us that we can legally determine when life ends so shouldn't we all be able to agree on when it begins

Perhaps at the time when a baby is viable out of the womb
Up until first breath
At the first birthday
At conception


Lets just say common sense could prevail, a time is determined, and the fight stops, do you realize how much money and political capital on both sides would be lost..
By pitting both ends against the middle, the politicians gain, so what is that "Truth" when does life begin ???

This is the seething pit of american politics

Originally Posted by gugi

That's only how we like to think of ourselves, not how we make decisions. For a very long time (possibly forever) politics has been not about policies but about identities.

As far as how to change this and if it's possible, I'm not sure it can, certainly not on a short term scale. This thread and many others, specifically how many people behave, has confirmed it for me.

So we need to make the jump from thinking about making rational decisions based on truthful facts to actually doing it. But first we need to find and agree on what is true and where we can find it. We need to reject spin in all it's forms. The scale of this kind of change may be small at the beginning but with time it can become a true force for change that will benefit all.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

It is all about money and power and common ground would eliminate much of that...

Just look at one single issue

Let's take Abortion..

There will never be a common sense solution and a legal statute set that will satisfy everyone,, see common sense tells us that we can legally determine when life ends so shouldn't we all be able to agree on when it begins

Perhaps at the time when a baby is viable out of the womb
Up until first breath
At the first birthday
At conception


Lets just say common sense could prevail, a time is determined, and the fight stops, do you realize how much money and political capital on both sides would be lost..
By pitting both ends against the middle, the politicians gain, so what is that "Truth" when does life begin ???

This is the seething pit of american politics

I totally agree that it's all about money, power and more money. Your example of abortion is a good example of a very difficult issue to address. This is likely not the best starting point to change the way we find common ground and change a completely broken system. Why not start with something I believe almost everyone feels would be an improvement. How about removing money from politics? I don't know many people on both sides of the political spectrum who say it's a good thing yet the basic feeling is helplessness to change it. This is where the hard work begins. Consensus needs to be gained through communications with both sides. Politicians need to feel the heat to make this happen or lose their jobs. Easy? No! ... Possible? Yes! .... Will it happen? The answer is in the mirror.

To me the fundamental question is how did this partisanship and divisiveness begin? Was it just an organic event that has taken on life by itself?

My view of the situation is things happen for a reason and there is a story behind everything. I firmly believe this whole thing was an organized and calculated move by person or persons unknown. If you want answers as to who would do such a thing you need ask yourself who would profit by the present situation.

Who would profit by a severely divided nation? Who would profit from a weak ineffectual Federal Government? Who would profit by more power in the hands of the States?

To me the answer is clear. The wealthy and the corporations in this country. It's the old divide and conquer principle so while the nation's citizens are in turmoil they are not noticing what the ruling class is doing. Who would profit by a weak federal Govt? Once again it's the ruling class who can do whatever they desire unopposed or with minimal opposition. Who wants more power going to the states? Once again it's the ruling class. Just look at most state legislators who are bought and paid for by special interests at a scale far above what we see in Washington. It's easier to buy a Governor than a Senator or a President. The headlines are full of these state dudes who are going to prison. N.Y, Ill,Va, and on and on.

Folks need to wake up and see who the real enemy is before it's too late. Most important they have to start thinking for themselves and not doing what someone on the radio or T.V tells them to think and do no matter the party.

Originally Posted by Brenngun

How do you ever find common ground if we don't have a common source for the truth that we can all trust.

How do we get there? Is it even possible? What does it look like? The way I see it we're all locked in a death spiral of half truths, spin and outright lies from all direction. If we don't break this cycle and find a place to trust together we're all just a fly waiting for the windshield on the freeway ....... cue the organ.....

"Truth? What is truth?" P. Pilate

Chrisl

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

To me the fundamental question is how did this partisanship and divisiveness begin? Was it just an organic event that has taken on life by itself?

My view of the situation is things happen for a reason and there is a story behind everything. I firmly believe this whole thing was an organized and calculated move by person or persons unknown. If you want answers as to who would do such a thing you need ask yourself who would profit by the present situation.

Who would profit by a severely divided nation? Who would profit from a weak ineffectual Federal Government? Who would profit by more power in the hands of the States?

To me the answer is clear. The wealthy and the corporations in this country. It's the old divide and conquer principle so while the nation's citizens are in turmoil they are not noticing what the ruling class is doing. Who would profit by a weak federal Govt? Once again it's the ruling class who can do whatever they desire unopposed or with minimal opposition. Who wants more power going to the states? Once again it's the ruling class. Just look at most state legislators who are bought and paid for by special interests at a scale far above what we see in Washington. It's easier to buy a Governor than a Senator or a President. The headlines are full of these state dudes who are going to prison. N.Y, Ill,Va, and on and on.

Folks need to wake up and see who the real enemy is before it's too late. Most important they have to start thinking for themselves and not doing what someone on the radio or T.V tells them to think and do no matter the party.

Everyone may or may not agree with you but ultimately the people as you said need to wake up. If there is a ruling class they are in the minority with respect to the number of votes they can cast. Obviously they then need to work hard to influence as many people as they can to vote for the candidates they control through their political contributions among other items. One way to reduce this is to demand from your representatives that they eliminate the money.

If the general public finally wakes up to this issue then we might actually be able to see real change instead of the same old same old we all complain about. It starts with a note to your representatives from a large number of people. Hmmm ... how to organize a large group of people with a single communication tool??