Thread: President of the US of A

Originally Posted by honedright

I think everyone should be able to keep the fruits of their labor. After all, what right does anyone else have to other peoples stuff? Oh that's right, "You didn't build that..."

Yeah that's one of the often used criticisms taken out of context.

Obama, July 13: There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Yeah that's one of the often used criticisms taken out of context.

Obama, July 13: There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.

Sounds like an embedded sophist's argument against ownership of private property. Anyone who's successfully built a business knows that they did build that.

Originally Posted by honedright

Sounds like an embedded sophist's argument against ownership of private property. Anyone who's successfully built a business knows that they did build that.

The problem with Obamas speech is that is does not address the fact that everyone enjoys the same "fruits" of government spending, yet some create more from it than others. It also suggests that we all pay equally into that government. I don't need to break down the imbalance that the rich pay in taxes vs. the rest of the population. In % it may be less but in real dollars, its more. That's another argument completely so lets not get derailed. Obama's argument is that somebody else made that happen when in fact the person that made that happen is likely the same person that built that. Then when you consider the participation rate in the workforce, you see that we have a huge number of people not building anything or making any contribution at all. If he wants to talk about the upper hand that one group has, he has to address the lack of contribution another group is making. But you see, this is exactly the argument his ilk would prefer. Because while we complain about the rich and poor, gov't stands on the sideline and benefits from it.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

The problem with Obamas speech is that is does not address the fact that everyone enjoys the same "fruits" of government spending, yet some create more from it than others. It also suggests that we all pay equally into that government. I don't need to break down the imbalance that the rich pay in taxes vs. the rest of the population. In % it may be less but in real dollars, its more. That's another argument completely so lets not get derailed. Obama's argument is that somebody else made that happen when in fact the person that made that happen is likely the same person that built that. Then when you consider the participation rate in the workforce, you see that we have a huge number of people not building anything or making any contribution at all. If he wants to talk about the upper hand that one group has, he has to address the lack of contribution another group is making. But you see, this is exactly the argument his ilk would prefer. Because while we complain about the rich and poor, gov't stands on the sideline and benefits from it.

I don't know, last time I checked I noticed I wasn't receiving any fruits from farm subsidies, medical insurance subsidies, or housing subsidies. But I'm pretty sure I paid into those. So what gives?

Originally Posted by honedright

I don't know, last time I checked I noticed I wasn't receiving any fruits from farm subsidies, medical insurance subsidies, or housing subsidies. But I'm pretty sure I paid into those. So what gives?

What gives is that you and I share similar views. You just don't realize that yet.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

What gives is that you and I share similar views. You just don't realize that yet.

No, I understand exactly what you are saying.

One thing that divisive Obama excels at is creating scapegoats. Pitting one faction against another as a ruse to distract attention. So that while Americans are all in a huff over poor vs rich, black vs white, etc, he, and his cronies, is out selling the country off to the United Nations and nobody seems to care or notice.

One thing that concerns me about Trump is that he appears just as divisive, if not more so, as Obama.

Your right about Trump being divisive. I think it serves his campaign perfectly as it seems the country is divided to some extent. The previous so called unifier along with the rest of the Govt has succeeded in disenfranchising a portion of the populace which trump is courting. You can say the same thing about Bernie.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

If he wants to talk about the upper hand that one group has, he has to address the lack of contribution another group is making.

Well, his opponent addressed precisely that with the '47% moochers' remark and we know how it all ended.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Because while we complain about the rich and poor, gov't stands on the sideline and benefits from it.

Well, the government system is pretty much the same as it has been since the country was founded. The argument is then that the people who run it are doing a really bad job. But those are the people the american citizens have chosen and keep choosing in free elections.

Since 2010 a whole bunch of new people under the label 'tea party' were elected with the promise of being different than the 'typical politicians' and fixing things. Neither Rubio nor Cruz who are representative of that movement got the nod. Instead it's Trump and in another direction - his diagnosis of the problem isn't the government but rather the Chinese, the Mexicans, and the Muslims. So far plenty of people agree with him and if he becomes president we'll see the results.

Originally Posted by gugi

Well, his opponent addressed precisely that with the '47% moochers' remark and we know how it all ended.



Well, the government system is pretty much the same as it has been since the country was founded. The argument is then that the people who run it are doing a really bad job. But those are the people the american citizens have chosen and keep choosing in free elections.

Since 2010 a whole bunch of new people under the label 'tea party' were elected with the promise of being different than the 'typical politicians' and fixing things. Neither Rubio nor Cruz who are representative of that movement got the nod. Instead it's Trump and in another direction - his diagnosis of the problem isn't the government but rather the Chinese, the Mexicans, and the Muslims. So far plenty of people agree with him and if he becomes president we'll see the results.

I never said the people were getting it right or making the right decisions. In fact, I suggested that the gov't loves and benefits through our collective disagreement.

Originally Posted by gugi

Well, the government system is pretty much the same as it has been since the country was founded.

Government is government. That's the whole point of having a limited government, because history has proven the case that, as a necessary evil, government is only useful when kept in check, but unfettered will ruin the liberties of it's citizens.