Thread: UK out of EU

I don't think I intimated the the USSR was a democracy, rather than it was an example of "experts" dictating policy. The fact that they could not grow enough food to feed themselves would, I should have thought, made my point. The fact that the British people voted to exit the EU is likely related to their desire for self-determination, rather than being dictated to by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Britain has, in somewhat recent history been subjected to less than cordial treatment certain European powers, the summer of 1940 comes to mind. It is therefore understandable that some British people might desire a level of autonomy not tolerated by the EU. Certainly the ability to control one's borders is a prima facia right of any nation. The whole of Europe will be dealing with the consequences of their open border policies for the remainder of this century. If you doubt that, just wait and see. If that situation does not lead to significant civil unrest and violence, they may count themselves lucky indeed.

Originally Posted by miller1952

I don't think I intimated the the USSR was a democracy, rather than it was an example of "experts" dictating policy. The fact that they could not grow enough food to feed themselves would, I should have thought, made my point. The fact that the British people voted to exit the EU is likely related to their desire for self-determination, rather than being dictated to by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Britain has, in somewhat recent history been subjected to less than cordial treatment certain European powers, the summer of 1940 comes to mind. It is therefore understandable that some British people might desire a level of autonomy not tolerated by the EU. Certainly the ability to control one's borders is a prima facia right of any nation. The whole of Europe will be dealing with the consequences of their open border policies for the remainder of this century. If you doubt that, just wait and see. If that situation does not lead to significant civil unrest and violence, they may count themselves lucky indeed.

The EU might have been a workable idea if it was a trading zone involving independent countries. Instead it looks to me like a new mega country was created, all be it slowly, with member countries reduced in key areas where they formerly had autonomous jurisdiction such as immigration policy to the level of a state or province on this side of the pond. That extra layer of government above the nation governments is bound to create trouble and has in the case of Brexit.

Bob

Look the brexit vote is very simple 17.5 million British people voted to leave with a majority and they won the vote and the democratic proccess must stand, I'm a person that voted out and as much as the anti brexit brigade don't like it I say tough shit the people have spoken, I have traveled throughout Europe from the 1960s until present day and I love Europe amazing cultures people Art, and I remember when we joined the common market under the UK Tory leader Ted Heath and back in the day 1973 it was all about a single common market with free trade, but in reality that soon changed it's all about a giant unelected third tier of Eurocrats in Brussels making laws dictating what we in the UK can or cannot do human rights are quite the opposite once you've live under them in fact they are so oppressive, as a proud Welshman and UK resident I say no longer will we be told what we can or cannot do in the UK we don't need human rights we are more than civilized to decided what's right or wrong in our own country.

Originally Posted by celticcrusader

we don't need human rights we are more than civilized to decided what's right or wrong in our own country.

You do realise that this is not an argument? Because you are confusing the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

As for "civilized", there are feelings, and then there are facts. Case in point, race and religious hate crimes rose 41% after EU vote. Which does not make you guys more civilised than anyone else, but more like exactly the same, or currently slightly worse.

And while a majority of UK citizens voted Leave, that majority is rather small. And quite a few things about it are strange, or funny, depending on your level of sarcasm. Take the rumour that "European Union Orders British Press NOT to Report when Terrorists are Muslims". This is provably false. The thing that irks me about the Leave campaign is that its level of "truthiness" (Bill Maher, or Stephen Colbert?) was ridiculously low. Not quite Donald Trump low, but abysmal by any standards applied to civilised countries, to use that word again. The Leave campaign was selling lies, big league, and your Australian propaganda god served as an amplifier in ways not known before.

And it was too simple for these liars to get away with their lies. The BBC's "fair" reporting created many false equivalences, and please don't get me started on the refugees vs EU migrants topic. We are dealing with the same problem in Germany, and you can reliably count on the radical right (the guys who high five with an outstretched arm) to mix them up for political gain.

And yes, some EU laws and regulations are mind boggling. Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 makes a lot of sense if you are in that trade, but for everyone else, it looks ridiculous. The EU is both complex, and complicated. Far more so than an average citizen will ever understand. Which was all nice and dandy before Mrs Thatcher started to make fun of it for profit. Yes, you got your money back. But you also opened the door for anti-trade, inward-looking, ethno-nationalist movements. Among the first people to congratulate Mr Trump on his election were Nigel Farage, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, and Frauke Petry. And, of course, their sponsor, Mr Putin. Does that not make you at least a little concerned?

And it should. Because areas like west Wales and the valleys get hundreds of millions of pounds in EU aid, far more than any other part of the UK. You guys made a juice net profit from being in the EU. Well, you are actually still making it, until Mrs May finally triggers article 50, something a majority of Europeans is eagerly waiting for.

So, well, feelings vs facts, right? This may feel good. Anti-establishment insurgencies always feel good in the beginning, when you haven't realised what's going to happen next. But happen it will, and believe me, Wales and other structurally broken parts of the UK will bear the brunt of the economic decline that will come with leaving the EU. Which, for me, is a shame. I loved living in the UK. Scotland and Wales are among the most fascinating landscapes in Europe, with some of the funniest, nicest people (arguably, their cooking skills don't quite hold up, but I digress). But I was born in the middle of the Cold War, and for me, European integration was a major achievement, and a bendy banana was a small price to pay for that. The EU has been the main factor in helping to preserve peace on the continent, and right now, things don't look too rosy for its future. And I hate that, with the heat of a nova.

Yes, the old anything to the right of Angela Merkel must be fascism, or beliefs that are intrinsically xenophobic, racist, and isolationist - so the claims go of the Alt-Left in pursuing their accepted, and shall we say, oh so fashionable version of totalitarianism.

Afterall, East Berlin was kinda "kitschy" and Castro was just a cool Hipster....

Originally Posted by Phrank

totalitarianism.

Would you kindly provide a short definition of totalitarianism? Just to ensure that we are talking about the same thing here. Thank you.

While I can see how the EU structure can/has rankled in Britain to the point that it was a part of the reason for the exit vote there were other parts to it also. The campaign in favour of exit skillfully cobbled together a coalition of the dissatisfied who for various reasons were unhappy with the status quo. Not all those that voted exit were racists but a good number were. Much the same thing happened in the US election campaign. It is really not hard to understand how either happened.

Before anyone goes off on the so called Alt-Left it should be remembered that uncle Adolf was no leftie but still managed to build a totalitarian state. Either side of center in the political spectrum is fully capable of creating a totalitarian state.

For votes on critical issues a rethink of the majority required to win might be a good idea. The 50+1 bar is really a pretty slim majority for these types of issues and leaves a country deeply divided internally after that fact.

Bob

Originally Posted by RobinK

You do realise that this is not an argument? Because you are confusing the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

As for "civilized", there are feelings, and then there are facts. Case in point, race and religious hate crimes rose 41% after EU vote. Which does not make you guys more civilised than anyone else, but more like exactly the same, or currently slightly worse.

And while a majority of UK citizens voted Leave, that majority is rather small. And quite a few things about it are strange, or funny, depending on your level of sarcasm. Take the rumour that "European Union Orders British Press NOT to Report when Terrorists are Muslims". This is provably false. The thing that irks me about the Leave campaign is that its level of "truthiness" (Bill Maher, or Stephen Colbert?) was ridiculously low. Not quite Donald Trump low, but abysmal by any standards applied to civilised countries, to use that word again. The Leave campaign was selling lies, big league, and your Australian propaganda god served as an amplifier in ways not known before.

And it was too simple for these liars to get away with their lies. The BBC's "fair" reporting created many false equivalences, and please don't get me started on the refugees vs EU migrants topic. We are dealing with the same problem in Germany, and you can reliably count on the radical right (the guys who high five with an outstretched arm) to mix them up for political gain.

And yes, some EU laws and regulations are mind boggling. Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 makes a lot of sense if you are in that trade, but for everyone else, it looks ridiculous. The EU is both complex, and complicated. Far more so than an average citizen will ever understand. Which was all nice and dandy before Mrs Thatcher started to make fun of it for profit. Yes, you got your money back. But you also opened the door for anti-trade, inward-looking, ethno-nationalist movements. Among the first people to congratulate Mr Trump on his election were Nigel Farage, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, and Frauke Petry. And, of course, their sponsor, Mr Putin. Does that not make you at least a little concerned?

And it should. Because areas like west Wales and the valleys get hundreds of millions of pounds in EU aid, far more than any other part of the UK. You guys made a juice net profit from being in the EU. Well, you are actually still making it, until Mrs May finally triggers article 50, something a majority of Europeans is eagerly waiting for.

So, well, feelings vs facts, right? This may feel good. Anti-establishment insurgencies always feel good in the beginning, when you haven't realised what's going to happen next. But happen it will, and believe me, Wales and other structurally broken parts of the UK will bear the brunt of the economic decline that will come with leaving the EU. Which, for me, is a shame. I loved living in the UK. Scotland and Wales are among the most fascinating landscapes in Europe, with some of the funniest, nicest people (arguably, their cooking skills don't quite hold up, but I digress). But I was born in the middle of the Cold War, and for me, European integration was a major achievement, and a bendy banana was a small price to pay for that. The EU has been the main factor in helping to preserve peace on the continent, and right now, things don't look too rosy for its future. And I hate that, with the heat of a nova.

Robin I respect your argument and point of view, but lets not overly complicate the matter with stats we in the UK were offered a democratic referendum on should we stay or should we go we voted out there is nothing else to discuss, I live in Wales we also had a referendum on a UK Welsh devolved government and we narrowly won 50% for 49% against that's democracy, I personally didn't vote for many UK elected governments but I have to except the democratic rule of law regardless if I don't agree or like it.