Thread: The Merits Of Discouraging Selected Discourse On SRP

Originally Posted by BrianP

Put on your toque and have a seat on the Chesterfield and we'll pour you a REAL beer and tell you all about it, eh?



So much for me breaking stereotype....

Just remember to keep your stick on the ice, eh ?

And yes, this is totally out of my Cdn grammar pouch (never used except for on here)

Oh the painful irony!!!!

As I read this thread on the merits of political discussions as I click to the second page there appears in the advertisements box a plea to "help elect Obama banner".




p.s. please git rid of that admins it has nothing to do with shaving and suggests a political slant for this site which is I hope unintended.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Oh the painful irony!!!!

As I read this thread on the merits of political discussions as I click to the second page there appears in the advertisements box a plea to "help elect Obama banner".




p.s. please git rid of that admins it has nothing to do with shaving and suggests a political slant for this site which is I hope unintended.

I've never seen it... I assume it was in the Google ads? We can only block google ads by the specific Url of the "offending" link, so if anyone sees it pm me the link.

First off, anyone should know by now that politics, religion, and firearms are ugly topics to bring up anywhere. I have to say though that these issues are brought up regularly and it is still rare that we lose a member over it, although most of us remember the first time this happened and it got quite ugly. As moderators we really try to stay out the day to day topics and let the SRP community govern itself for the most part. I have not been on as much as I should have lately, but I do check the OT forum whenever I am online and it is definitely one of my favorite spots on SRP. I certainly dont want to censor members as a whole or have to make anyone wonder what they can and cant say, but if the members decide they would like more moderation on the OT forum on a case by case basis I will be happy to commit to checking the OT forum daily to make sure nothing is getting out of hand.

I also am always quick to respond to PM's regarding inappropriate posts, in fact those PMs go directly to my cell phone and I generally respond to them within minutes no matter what time of day or where in the world I may be at the time, unless I am in a secured area with no phones allowed or I just dont get signal. So please feel free to let me know if something is on your mind.

I would much rather have to take a hands on approach than see people censor themselves as a whole, I am not going to start heavily policing the OT forum unless it is requested by the members because frankly, it would piss me off if someone else did that to a forum I was reading without it being requested.

Josh

Originally Posted by JMS

We're always civil! It's them damned Canadians!

sorry .................................................. .................................................. .....................

Originally Posted by xman

There are rules about making hateful comments about others and that's certainly how that should be. There are times when one's opinion isn't only unwanted, it's unacceptable. Clearly we shouldn't disallow simple comments such as "We'll be praying for you" but that's not the same thing as a long post about 'what's wrong with liberalism' and not nearly the same as a long thread composed of people picking sides on an issue and trying to ram their ideas through their perceived rivals' heads. As we've seen, somebody will almost invariably end up feeling hurt and it's only a matter of time before we get to hear somebody else say, "I'm taking my ball and going home". Since it's against our ideals of free speech to tell people they can't mention such things, what can we do?

Let them pick up their ball and go home. Problem solved. If one is so thin skinned that electronic dots on a screen bothers them so then perhaps they should insulate themselves from such discourse.

I am as guilty as the next person of being offended by a post that denigrates a strongly held conviction. At times. Most of the time I realize that they are looking at the situation through THEIR prism, not MINE and I don't let it bother me. I give them the same consideration I expect from them: I consider their comments, I examine their reasoning and I research any supporting documentation they might provide. We don't have to even come close to agreeing. All I ever ask is that I be allowed to put forth my opinion for consideration. Whether one agrees with it or not is immaterial. This is how we learn not only who others are, but who WE are as well.

For example, one of my hot buttons is censorship. I am very sensitive to one person or group thinking that they have the right to tell another what they can and cannot talk about. Or think. Or do, for that matter. Now, being a relatively rational person I agree that a member here should have a reasonable expectation that if they go to the "Restoration" forum and open a post that is entitled "Wapi Scales" the thread will have something to do with wapi scales. It shouldn't veer off into a discussion of politics, religion or cultural differences. If it does then someone (perhaps even a moderator) should steer it back on topic. In the same vein if in the "Off Topic" forum there is a thread entitled "World's Shortest Political Quiz" if one is of the mindset to dislike political discussions then it would behoove that person to simply pass that topic by.

I've had this discussion in private with more than one moderator (on more than a few different forums as well). As long as the topics are within the TOS of the site and the discourse is relatively civil then the thread should remain open to whatever an individual wishes to post. The challenge with that statement is that someone has to define "relatively civil". Everyone has a particular threshold that is unique to them. What I consider to be civil most likely differs from what X or GW views as civil.

Here's what I suggest. Let's make a habit of exempting such comments from our posts. Each member must be responsible for himself in this matter.

If by "exempting such comments" you mean not making personal attacks against other members I'm with you. If you mean being civil in your disagreement with a particular position I'm with you. If you mean not stating your opinion or agreement/disagreement with a particular position in as strong a manner as you feel appropriate we could not possibly be in less agreement.

Let's also discourage others from posting openly on these topics. PM's to each other are each individual's business and it lacks the 'soap box' of the off topic forum. I also suggest that we try using PM's more for this agenda (just calling a spade a spade) to avoid public displays of 'free speech' which could also be distasteful.

I completely disagree with you on this point. Of course you are free to send anything you wish to another member in private. I don't say anything in a PM that I would be ashamed to say here in public. Keep in mind that unless you have asked for and received an assurance of privacy, once a PM hits the other person's inbox it is theirs to do with as they please. Including posting your PM in an open thread.

It's easy to do and I think we should begin to be responsible for the tone of our favourite site on the internet and make it a welcome one for future members to come to and participate in. Our primary goal is to encourage and enjoy discussing straight razor related topics.

That should be one primary goal. Another primary goal should be to create a place where those who choose to become more involved as a community can do so. This includes learning more about our members, who they REALLY are, what they do, what they think. To be totally frank, if this site becomes strictly about shaving then I believe we'll lose a lot of members. I'll be the first to go. I hate to say it but as much as I appreciate the topic I pretty much learned everything I need to know about shaving with a straight razor a few months ago. I WANT to know more, but I don't NEED to. I continue to be a part of this community in large part because of the sense of community that I feel a part of.

It is counterproductive for us to risk alienating people. My concern is that, if we don't activate such practices we will continue to lose member needlessly and who knows who will be next.

I'm not sure what specific practices you are advocating activating. People will come and go. Why they do so is their own business. It's not any different than in real life. I like my friends and appreciate their company. I have a good friend that I play golf with every weekend. He joined our group last fall when he moved from Dallas. He's moving back to Dallas next month. We have a new CFO at my company. He's going to be taking his place in our foursome. Life changes. People move in and out of your life constantly. I try to treat everyone fairly. Not everyone likes me. I celebrate life and I live it abundantly. I am audacious, bold and somewhat bombastic. I am this way naturally. I don't apologize for it, I don't try to diminish it, nor do I consciously try to magnify it. It's just who I am. If that offends someone to the point that they feel they have to leave because of me then so be it. There are people here on this site that I genuinely enjoy that could not be farther apart from me in their beliefs. As an aside, I'm really looking forward to meeting a lot of them in real life in Chicago.

As a show of my commitment to this ideal, I have removed the link in my signature which appears to have prompted Lou's ire.

What was the link? I don't remember seeing anything that I thought was inappropriate. PM me if you don't want to post it here.

Life is funny sometimes…

Before the OT forum was implemented the topics which habitually move us close to the precipice of trouble… politics, religion, 1st and 2nd amendment rights, etc. … were discussed infrequently as they would have been considered, well, “off topic” in any of the razor forums.

So, why was an OT forum implemented? Well, we implemented the OT forum to create a place where members could ask questions about topics unrelated to razors/wetshaving and get answers from people they knew and trusted. You know… the threads that typically started with “I know this is not the place to post this but…”. Topically, these covered the gamut… questions regarding computers, motorcycles, cars, hobbies, professions, cameras, etc. Or the announcement of an impending birth, announcement of an illness/death, a vacation... and all manner of other things.

It never really occurred (at least to me) that we would be opening a Pandora’s box. I naively assumed the discussions would continue to be about computers, cars, sporting events, etc. I naively thought that people who wished to discuss the highly emotional topics of religion, politics, etc. would do so on other sites dedicated to those subjects. I naively thought that people would self-moderate themselves just like they had all along.

I honestly enjoy many of the threads on our OT forum… and I pretty much ignore the subject matter on those I don’t. But I realize not everyone can do that. Unfortunately, the OT forum has apparently become more important than the razor forums for some members... several have made >80% of their posts in the OT forum!

I strongly support the self-moderation ethic we have here, although it is not beyond me to ask someone to cool it if the situation appears to be getting out of control. The problem ultimately is that what is inflammatory to one is simply spirited discussion or debate to another. So we’re all, in a sense, damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

In that light, I suggest we each adopt the following mindset...

1. Avoid getting into in-depth discussions about topics such as religion, politics, civil rights, etc. These topics are ancillary to the primary purpose of this site, so if you want to discuss them in depth consider doing so on a site more dedicated to such topics.
2. If you simply cannot resist starting/participating in discussions related to inflammatory subjects, then keep in mind that we are a site with an International membership... people from all walks of life in the areas of culture, religion, politics, etc. Hence, we should expect to encounter opinions and beliefs radically different than our own. Since many of these discussions deal with topics which have literally been the fodder for wars over the millenniums, the chances are not good that we will encounter any brilliantly new ideas or see consensus in such discussions... hence we should not expect to convert anyone to our way of thinking.
3. We all have a right to our own opinions, and others have the right to theirs. If you cannot deal with that, then you should not participate in those threads.

A couple of observations inline:

Originally Posted by azjoe

I honestly enjoy many of the threads on our OT forum… and I pretty much ignore the subject matter on those I don’t.

In this we are in total agreement.

But I realize not everyone can do that.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this assertion. Unless I'm missing some crucial information (please enlighten me if I am) we are all free to read or ignore any forum or thread. Is there some special type of membership which requires one to read everything that is posted? Absent that I would agree that "not everyone CHOOSES to do that".

Unfortunately, the OT forum has apparently become more important than the razor forums for some members... several have made >80% of their posts in the OT forum!

I certainly can't speak to what others do. I haven't done a statistical analysis of my postings here but if I need to I will. I'd caution not to take what "looks like" as fact.

In addition, I question the value of being concerned with what percentage of posts a member posts where. Again, being able to only speak for myself, I appreciate the variety and depth of knowledge and experience that we have to draw from here. I'd hate to miss out on learning something from someone simply because they decide not to participate so as to not be one of the "Off Topic Pirates". On a personal level I believe that I add value to the community on several levels, including the OT forum.

I strongly support the self-moderation ethic we have here, although it is not beyond me to ask someone to cool it if the situation appears to be getting out of control. The problem ultimately is that what is inflammatory to one is simply spirited discussion or debate to another. So we’re all, in a sense, damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

Ah, the joys of free speech. A quote from the character President Andrew Shepherd in "The American President", which has some pertinent text sprinkled in with plot from the movie: (please forgive the US-centric language, it is ancillary to the main point)

For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

In that light, I suggest we each adopt the following mindset...

1. Avoid getting into in-depth discussions about topics such as religion, politics, civil rights, etc. These topics are ancillary to the primary purpose of this site, so if you want to discuss them in depth consider doing so on a site more dedicated to such topics.

One of the primary reasons that I enjoy the discussions we've had here is because of the diversity of opinion. Since we are an international group we have a wide variety of experiences and philosophies. In addition, and this is a key point, we all have something in common that transcends whatever our "off topic" differences may be. That's not usual on other forums that might be "dedicated to such topics". I don't want to spend time discussing any subject with any group that have exactly the same opinion as I. Nor do I want to be one of the "mavericks" that are routinely flamed for having a viewpoint opposite that of the vast majority of a group. I've participated in both over the years and am simply not interested in doing it.

1. If you simply cannot resist starting/participating in discussions related to inflammatory subjects, then keep in mind that we are a site with an International membership... people from all walks of life in the areas of culture, religion, politics, etc. Hence, we should expect to encounter opinions and beliefs radically different than our own. Since many of these discussions deal with topics which have literally been the fodder for wars over the millenniums, the chances are not good that we will encounter any brilliantly new ideas or see consensus in such discussions... hence we should not expect to convert anyone to our way of thinking.

Two outstanding points here that you've highlighted. The first echoes what I posted above about why it's important to have discussions here. The second is a plain fact that it would help us all to keep in the front of our minds as we're discussing.

1. We all have a right to our own opinions, and others have the right to theirs. If you cannot deal with that, then you should not participate in those threads.

Well said. I'd add to that "Not only does everyone have the right to their opinion, they also have the right to express it." Along with that right comes the responsibility of expressing it in a manner that shows the proper respect to the community.

Thank you Joe, and thank you to all the moderators that volunteer their time to help keep such a spirited group moving in a positive direction.

Jonedangerousli... just a couple quick comments on your post...

• When I said "not everyone can do that" I hope you knew I meant that not everyone is able to control themselves well enough to ignore other people's comments .
• As to the statistical posting percent, that wasn't a comment aimed at you (or anyone else in particular, for that matter). It's just a fact (I have done an analysis on several of our newer member's posting habits and indeed some seem to be here primarily for the OT forum since they make infrequent posts in the other forums.) The only implication for me posting that info was to demonstrate that the majority of our membership is here to discuss razors and shaving, not freedoms and politics.

Originally Posted by azjoe

Jonedangerousli... just a couple quick comments on your post...

• When I said "not everyone can do that" I hope you knew I meant that not everyone is able to control themselves well enough to ignore other people's comments .

I did. I was just making a point. I can occasionally lapse into a pedantic mood, as you already have surmised

• As to the statistical posting percent, that wasn't a comment aimed at you (or anyone else in particular, for that matter). It's just a fact (I have done an analysis on several of our newer member's posting habits and indeed some seem to be here primarily for the OT forum since they make infrequent posts in the other forums.) The only implication for me posting that info was to demonstrate that the majority of our membership is here to discuss razors and shaving, not freedoms and politics.

I didn't take it personally. As background, I'd had a moderator on another board question why I was there, since he observed "You only post on political threads". I had posted at the time 326 posts, of which only 35 were on 3 different politically oriented threads. It's just that nobody was pm'ing him complaining about the other 289. I suppose they were ok with them, but when I voiced a strong opinion I was being "mean".

As far as new members are concerned, consider this: Being new to the community it would be natural to, if you wanted to be an active participant rather than just a lurker, gravitate to an area of the site that you were possibly more comfortable with. If you were a completely new straight shaver, or even if you hadn't taken the first step of laying a bare blade on your face, you could quite possibly feel that you really wouldn't have much to add to most of the posts in the "On Topic" areas. I tend to take people as I find them. Rather than try to discourage them from being a part of the community (in whatever way they were comfortable with) we should include them in whatever way we can.

The trolls eventually will tire of the civility and weed themselves out on their own. There was an incident of exactly this a while back, although I can't remember whether it was here or on B&B. A guy from the UK, (I believe) in his very first post launched with this anti-American tirade. I think he posted twice more before he realized he was in the wrong place.