Thread: Sicko the Movie

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Question: Where's the incentive to develop new technologies and medical procedures if everyone has government run , socialized medicine? Or am I looking at this wrong? How does socialized medicine actually work?

I don't know, but apparently it must work fairly well since almost all of the other industrializes countries use a form of socialized medicine.

Question: I can't stand going to the DMV because it's such a mess --- why should I want my medical care handled by the same inept bunch?

Geez... I'd hope they wouldn't turn the medical stuff over to the DMV ... just kidding!

Seriously though, I don't see how it could be any more inefficient that what we have today in the USA... you go to the doctor and get a diagnosis... he then must check with the insurance company to see if he can treat you for it... they then tell him what treatments he's allowed to use... he then must check with another arm of the insurance company to see what drugs he can prescribe for you. If he needs to send you to a specialist he must contact the insurance company to get permission to do that and then choose from their list of specialists that they will allow you to use. If you need lab work or radiology (x-rays, CAT or MRI scans, etc) he has to see which facilities the insurance company will allow him to send you to. If you need to be hospitalized the insurance company must be contacted to authorize that, too. Meanwhile, everyone is sending everyone else copies of all paperwork which must be reviewed and filed. Your doctors, specialists, labs, etc. then spend the next 6-months billing you and the insurance company until the insurance company finally pays. All in all, there's damn little time being spent doctoring compared to the amount of hours spent faxing and phone calling between you, the doctors, the pharmacies, and the insurance companies. Seems to me that's easily as big a cluster f**k as the DMV could ever hope to be.

Question: What's the incentive to become a doctor? How well are doctors payed in such a plan?

I don't know... some knowledgeable parties from Canada, the UK, Belgium, etc. might be able to speak to that.

It may be different where you live, but here in AZ a huge percentage of the medical people (doctors, nurses, med techs, etc.) seem to come from a foreign country, so maybe there isn't a huge incentive to Americans to enter the medical field as it is.

Originally Posted by azjoe

I don't know, but apparently it must work fairly well since almost all of the other industrializes countries use a form of socialized medicine.

O.K but what country or countries is most responsible for new technologies and procedures ----just because you use the technology or procedures doesn't mean you are developing them --- don't you need a profit motive? Are some countries that use socialized medicine benefiting from the technologies developed in non-socialized medicine countries ---maybe the U.S for example -- really I don't know

Really just trying to learn here.

Justin

This is pretty interesting and from a different point of view. There is a little short documentary presented by the speaker maybe a quarter way through. Click on: Young America's Foundation Conf. Speech on the U.S. Health Care System

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.a...&image1=Submit

Since this health care stuff is a tiny bit off the original topic, which is a Moore film I thought I'd toss my two cents out there about the film.

Frankly I've never seen it. I won't be seeing it. He has stretched the truth too many times in the past for me to give him any credibility. No matter how many "truths" he comes up with I don't think he is trustworthy enough to listen to. He may be right on for the rest of his life but for me his opinions are moot.

You might think this is just a right wing hate talk or something, but really despite my political views I value honesty much more than my own point of view. (probably why I enjoy this type of thread so much).

My actually feelings on the health care system keep shifting even as I read this thread. My basic feeling is that I am a better steward of my money than the Government will ever be. The government always ends up paying far to much for too little service. And Doctors have too much ego, and sometimes not enough honesty or knowledge.

Where does that place my opinion. A bit on the free market side, I think we would do better to have a competitive system where costs would stay low. In order for that to happen, however, there has to be a way to shop for what you want. All of us are guilty (including HMO's and the Govt) of not asking enough questions and not finding the lowest cost for quality places to get care. We far to often just go where we are told to and do whatever the doctors want, imagine buying a used care this way.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

My actually feelings on the health care system keep shifting even as I read this thread. My basic feeling is that I am a better steward of my money than the Government will ever be. The government always ends up paying far to much for too little service. And Doctors have too much ego, and sometimes not enough honesty or knowledge.

I also think I'd be a better steward for my money then the government.
But that is besides the point.
I am now paying a bit per month. I can miss the bit without too much trouble.
For small things like doctors visits, and simple dental work, I'd come out way ahead and be left with $$$.

My brother is less lucky. He has a number of chronic ailments, and while his situation is much better now than a couple of years ago, there is still no cure or even a good treatment for some of the things he has.

If he had to pay for all the tests and medicines by himself, he would have been dead by now because. Furthermore, since he already had problems before joining the workforce (he recently got his phd) no insurance company would have accepted him and paid for prior illness.

So in a manner of speaking, I am paying for his problems. I don't care. The whole point of our healthcare system is that everybody chips in so that the total of costs can be covered.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Where does that place my opinion. A bit on the free market side, I think we would do better to have a competitive system where costs would stay low. In order for that to happen, however, there has to be a way to shop for what you want. All of us are guilty (including HMO's and the Govt) of not asking enough questions and not finding the lowest cost for quality places to get care. We far to often just go where we are told to and do whatever the doctors want, imagine buying a used care this way.

Insurance companies are publicly traded companies that exist solely for the purpose of making money. So you are paying for the profit of the company, and you pay for the salaries, buildings, stock options and the CEO's private jet.

The paper work increases a lot, and doctors needed dedicated staff to handle it. You are paying for that too.

Since medicare is expensive, doctors get sued for anything and everything (which is quite rare over here) because people pretty much have to to recoup their costs (I am going to ignore the lawsuit quick rich mentaliy) But you are paying for the doctor's lawsuit insurance, which I understood is quite expensive.

Since the insurance companies determine what they pay, you are forced to go for the therapy / medication / hospital they force you to. The free market component falls away, and suppliers take a healthy chunk of your money, simply because they can.

As soon as care has to result in profits, you will pay more than when it doesn't.

I suppose a description of how I see the way things work right now would help make my opinion a little more transparent.


The way I see the health care system right now is as a collection of corporate socialized programs of which the governments (medicade/medicare) is just one. What we have now is a collection of groups which you pay to be a member of each offering one degree or another of care. The government is just like the health insurance corporation, charging taxes instead of premiums. Right now I think we essentially have a socialized system, just by company instead of government. There is even a profit parallel: With corporations it is the shareholders, with Government workers it is the union bosses. When I say free market I mean there would be no Hierarchy above the doctor/hospital to cushion the bottom line. Harsh but it wold weed out the fat.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

With corporations it is the shareholders, with Government workers it is the union bosses. When I say free market I mean there would be no Hierarchy above the doctor/hospital to cushion the bottom line. Harsh but it wold weed out the fat.

Yes it would weed out the weak, and it would also say 'screw you' to anyone not healthy and lucky enough.
Civilization should be about having a stucture in which everybody can have a better life. Even the less fortunate ones.

And the fact that virtually everyone here can afford all healthcare they need without financial problems proves that our system is not equal to the US system. Otherwise we would spend just as much.