Thread: Sicko the Movie

Originally Posted by azjoe

don't buy insurance and declare bankruptcy if a major illness happens.

My impression was recent changes to the bankruptcy laws in the US have made it far more difficult, if not impossible, to go this route.

Originally Posted by azjoe

That would have been $476 out of pocket, but my health insurance paid $376. If it hadn't resolved itself then the next step was going to be an MRI for something like $7700 out-of-pocket.

I don't go to the doctor often... I had a physical in 1985 and again in 1997. I saw an Orthopedic guy in 2001 when a sprained ankle remained painful for over a year and got a cortisone shot. The insurance costs me $235 a month... clearly I need to go to the doctor more often to get my money's worth

That just seems insane; pleased to hear you came out of it comparatively cheaply though.

In Canada you can end up waiting over a year for joint replacement or other non 'urgent' surgery which I get the impression doesn't happen in the US assuming you have insurance or enough cash.

On the other hand I can have all the heart attacks I want for free. I have heard on other forums women contemplating whether or not the co-pay was worth it to have a lump checked out in the US though and that just seems unthinkable. Certainly if you have a diagnostic need like a lump, bad cough, potentially broken bone, mri, etc. it is a no brainer to just go to the hospital here.
An emergency room visit will cost you ~3 hours of your life in line waiting (assuming non-critical injury) but not a penny in cash.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

There's another interesting movie/doco out at the moment called, I think, "Manufacturing Dissent", or something like that.

I haven't seen it, but from what I've read in reviews it would make an interesting viewing in conjunction with some of Moore's movies.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti - Moore, but I'm not pro - Moore either. I tend not to take anything at face value, so I'm interested to see what other doco makers (with their own biases) think about his work and methods.

James.

Yeah -- that's the problem, few others are making documentaries to counter Moore --- I personally don't trust the guy -- I really think he is a guilt ridden person, who will try to show the faults in the "American way " out of some perverse self hatred.

We have a certain phenomena within this country where people, maybe of modest means, become a celebrity, become rich just to then point the finger at the U.S. and complain about how unfair and unjust the U.S. system is and how impossible it is for people to succeed. If Moore can become a success --anybody can ----

On Cspan the other day a conservative documentary maker showed a short documentary counteracting the figures presented by most liberals --- it was interesting --to bad I can't remember his name.

Question: Where's the incentive to develop new technologies and medical procedures if everyone has government run , socialized medicine? Or am I looking at this wrong? How does socialized medicine actually work?

Question: I can't stand going to the DMV because it's such a mess --- why should I want my medical care handled by the same inept bunch?

Question: What's the incentive to become a doctor? How well are doctors payed in such a plan?

Justin

This is pretty interesting and from a different point of view. There is a little short documentary presented by the speaker maybe a quarter way through. Click on: Young America's Foundation Conf. Speech on the U.S. Health Care System

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.a...&image1=Submit

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Question: Where's the incentive to develop new technologies and medical procedures if everyone has government run , socialized medicine? Or am I looking at this wrong? How does socialized medicine actually work?

I don't know, but apparently it must work fairly well since almost all of the other industrializes countries use a form of socialized medicine.

Question: I can't stand going to the DMV because it's such a mess --- why should I want my medical care handled by the same inept bunch?

Geez... I'd hope they wouldn't turn the medical stuff over to the DMV ... just kidding!

Seriously though, I don't see how it could be any more inefficient that what we have today in the USA... you go to the doctor and get a diagnosis... he then must check with the insurance company to see if he can treat you for it... they then tell him what treatments he's allowed to use... he then must check with another arm of the insurance company to see what drugs he can prescribe for you. If he needs to send you to a specialist he must contact the insurance company to get permission to do that and then choose from their list of specialists that they will allow you to use. If you need lab work or radiology (x-rays, CAT or MRI scans, etc) he has to see which facilities the insurance company will allow him to send you to. If you need to be hospitalized the insurance company must be contacted to authorize that, too. Meanwhile, everyone is sending everyone else copies of all paperwork which must be reviewed and filed. Your doctors, specialists, labs, etc. then spend the next 6-months billing you and the insurance company until the insurance company finally pays. All in all, there's damn little time being spent doctoring compared to the amount of hours spent faxing and phone calling between you, the doctors, the pharmacies, and the insurance companies. Seems to me that's easily as big a cluster f**k as the DMV could ever hope to be.

Question: What's the incentive to become a doctor? How well are doctors payed in such a plan?

I don't know... some knowledgeable parties from Canada, the UK, Belgium, etc. might be able to speak to that.

It may be different where you live, but here in AZ a huge percentage of the medical people (doctors, nurses, med techs, etc.) seem to come from a foreign country, so maybe there isn't a huge incentive to Americans to enter the medical field as it is.

Originally Posted by azjoe

I don't know, but apparently it must work fairly well since almost all of the other industrializes countries use a form of socialized medicine.

O.K but what country or countries is most responsible for new technologies and procedures ----just because you use the technology or procedures doesn't mean you are developing them --- don't you need a profit motive? Are some countries that use socialized medicine benefiting from the technologies developed in non-socialized medicine countries ---maybe the U.S for example -- really I don't know

Really just trying to learn here.

Justin

Just an article to read -- take it for what it's worth:

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=196918


Justin

Well its not something that I exactly pay much attention to, but I believe that many medical procedures and techniques have come from countries like Israel, Germany, Sweden, etc.... all social medicine countries. Many drugs are developed and approved in Europe long before they appear here... in fact, many of the drug companies you think of as "American" are actually headquartered in other countries. That said, since there's tons of profit made by the drug companies here in in this country, there's lots of research done here also. Bear in mind that much of invention originates in the university environment, not just private industry.

I read the second reference you gave. (I couldn't view the cspan one as I don't (and won't) have realplayer on my computer.) I'm sure everything said was true... and I'm pretty sure there's problems in every system.

For example, my wife has pretty decent insurance, yet it took over two years and several unnecessary operations to get a condition diagnosed because the insurance company wouldn't pay for her see the specialists she needed to see. Worse, several of the specialists treated her for their "speciality" and when the problem didn't resolve they sent her on her way. She would then go back to her primary care physician for him to make another guess and recommend another specialist. It can easily leave you with a feeling that no one is really your advocate for solving the problem... everyone is just handing you off to someone else who may/may not decide to treat you.

Finally, in desperation, her PCP said he didn't know what else to do but suggest she go outside the insurance boundaries... and he suggested Mayo clinic. We decided to hell with what it costs and went there... her condition was correctly diagnosed by the first doctor she saw and confirmed by their "specialist" 3-months later (which was the earliest appointment she could get with him).

I could also relate a story about spending 12-hours in an emergency room to have them x-ray the wrong limb and misdiagnose a septic infection which ultimately ended up with the patient dying. So the social medicine countries don't have a lock on horror stories.

I can only speak for Belgium of course.

The government does not do anything with healthcare except paying for it.
R&D is done by pharmaceutical companies (I work for one) and universities (most large hostpitals are attached -not physically of course- to a university).

Doctors earn good money here, simply because what they charge is theirs.
My doctor charges 21 euros for a general consultation. He signs a chit that basically gets me a 16 or 18 euro refund so I only pay a couple of euros.
He gets to keep the whole of the 21 euros. Of course, he just has to pay income tax like any of us, and he probably has to pay a mandatory member fee to the national order of medical practicioners, but other than that he is making good money.

Our healthcare system is not designed to be profitable. It is designed to help people by paying for whatever needs paying.
If I need an MRI or surgery, I make an appointment with the specialist in the hospital. He sees me, schedules a date within the next couple of weeks, and I get treated on that specified date. waiting times are short, and quality of service is good.

Any systems has its problems and Belgium is not an exception. People unlucky enough sometimes fall through the cracks in the system, but that is rare.

My brother has a number of chronic ailments, and if it hadn't been for our system, my parents would have been bankrupted long before he graduated. He still went trough hell and back, and some of the things he needs are expensive even in our system, but money was never really an issue.

EDIT: Of course, individual doctors can make mistake / be assholes /... but that is true in any system.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I can only speak for Belgium of course.

The government does not do anything with healthcare except paying for it.
R&D is done by pharmaceutical companies (I work for one) and universities (most large hostpitals are attached -not physically of course- to a university).

Doctors earn good money here, simply because what they charge is theirs.
My doctor charges 21 euros for a general consultation. He signs a chit that basically gets me a 16 or 18 euro refund so I only pay a couple of euros.
He gets to keep the whole of the 21 euros. Of course, he just has to pay income tax like any of us, and he probably has to pay a mandatory member fee to the national order of medical practicioners, but other than that he is making good money.

Our healthcare system is not designed to be profitable. It is designed to help people by paying for whatever needs paying.
If I need an MRI or surgery, I make an appointment with the specialist in the hospital. He sees me, schedules a date within the next couple of weeks, and I get treated on that specified date. waiting times are short, and quality of service is good.

Any systems has its problems and Belgium is not an exception. People unlucky enough sometimes fall through the cracks in the system, but that is rare.

My brother has a number of chronic ailments, and if it hadn't been for our system, my parents would have been bankrupted long before he graduated. He still went trough hell and back, and some of the things he needs are expensive even in our system, but money was never really an issue.

EDIT: Of course, individual doctors can make mistake / be assholes /... but that is true in any system.

The government doesn't pay for it! They pick your pocket to pay for it! I would rather be in charge of the money I work hard for than let the government take as much as they deem necessary! This is where government determines that they know whats better for me than I do and which is the best way to handle my money! I have intelligence enough to figure out my own way to go thank you! I also worked very hard for my money and as long as I am able I'll spend it any damned way I choose thank you!!

Originally Posted by JMS

The government doesn't pay for it! They pick your pocket to pay for it! I would rather be in charge of the money I work hard for than let the government take as much as they deem necessary! This is where government determines that they know whats better for me than I do and which is the best way to handle my money! I have intelligence enough to figure out my own way to go thank you! I also worked very hard for my money and as long as I am able I'll spend it any damned way I choose thank you!!

Of course. The government does not have more money than we give it.
But currently, everybody gets charged an amount of money so that the total is enough to cover the cost of everything and everybody.

The downside is that currently I am only paying for things that are not to my benefit. But the upside is that if I ever need expensive medical care, the cost is not an issue.

The money I have to pay is not so much that it hurts me, and given that medical expenses can easily ruin a family financially, I think this is a good deal in the long run. Both for society as a whole, as for the individual who is paying.

I do not doubt for a second that you are smart enough to figure out how to take care of yourself and your family, but you also have to have the resources to do it.
The US system is geared towards the rich only.
A family on a small income is ruined if something serious happens. They might have to sell the house, can forget about college for their kids, etc. Well, that or watching their kid die or suffer.

Our system is called 'socialized' healthcare because we care enough about our fellow men to prevent this from happening.
EDIT: IMO, Decent healthcare is a right, not a privilege.
EDIT2: We also don't have to spend trillions on other stuff