Thread: Sicko the Movie

Originally Posted by Bruno

Of course. The government does not have more money than we give it.
But currently, everybody gets charged an amount of money so that the total is enough to cover the cost of everything and everybody.

The downside is that currently I am only paying for things that are not to my benefit. But the upside is that if I ever need expensive medical care, the cost is not an issue.

The money I have to pay is not so much that it hurts me, and given that medical expenses can easily ruin a family financially, I think this is a good deal in the long run. Both for society as a whole, as for the individual who is paying.

I do not doubt for a second that you are smart enough to figure out how to take care of yourself and your family, but you also have to have the resources to do it.
The US system is geared towards the rich only.
A family on a small income is ruined if something serious happens. They might have to sell the house, can forget about college for their kids, etc. Well, that or watching their kid die or suffer.

Our system is called 'socialized' healthcare because we care enough about our fellow men to prevent this from happening.
EDIT: IMO, Decent healthcare is a right, not a privilege.

I am considered the poorest of the poor in my country and I pay for my medical expenses out of my pocket! Imagine that. If I only knew that Americas health care system was geared toward the rich only I may have spent my money on health insurance instead of saving it for a rainy day!
Whenever insurance companies or government get involved in anything prices tend to rise considerably beyond what they would have if it was left up to the free market!
Generally speaking the quality tends to diminish also!

EDIT: In many other countries I would be considered very rich by the way!

I would like to add that I have never been turned away at any medical facility in the U.S. for lack of insurance or lack of funds and although I am sure I didn't get luxury accommodations I got adequate accommodations and top rate medical care!

A friend of mine has a daughter that was born with a physical problem with her skull. It was more complicated than that but I don't know the details either.
Anyway, she nearly lived in the hospital for a year, had complicated surgery about 30 times, involving neuro surgeons and whatnot.
Then when she finally was ok, He had a breakdown himself and was sick for a couple of months, until he got Lyme's on top of his breakdown. So he stayed home for a full year.

They suffered a lot, but my friend is now back to his fulltime engineers job, and his daughter is growing up fine. She still needs checkup regularly but last time I heard everything was allright.

The total cost of everything must have run into a 6 digit number.
They went thought a lot, but it is past and they have their life in front of him.
However, should the same thing have happened to you, your kid might have died when your money ran out, and you would be left with nothing in the end except a huge debt.

That is why I called the US system a gamble. There is a significant chance that you end up with a lot of cash at the end, but it is also very possible to end up with a pile of misery for you and your family that you will never be able to get rid of.

I work for a health insurance company/plan. I agree that the system here is broken and something drastic will need to be done and soon.

I see a lot of talk about "free" health care. There is no "free" health care. It will be paid for one way or another.

Also, lets not forget that the "managed" healthcare we have now came about for a reason. The docs and hospitals didn't do a very good job when they were calling all the shots and spending other people's money on themselves. They had a good thing going, but they squeezed the golden goose a little too hard.

I don't know what the answers are, but the vast majority of the health care dollars are spent on a very small % of the population that is very sick. I think working for a healthier population (this is about lifestyle) and better managing the very sick are where we have to look.

Jordan

I am pleased to hear despite a difficult financial situation you manage to pay for health care.

What of the homeless or people even poorer than yourself though?
What if you have a severe problem? The costs can rapidly run to the hundreds of thousands could you still afford that?


The socialized health care programs have massive inefficiencies (as does any government agency really) but the private systems overcharge to make a profit so I think it balances out.
If you look at the numbers Americans actually pay more per capita for health care yet not everyone is covered so I don't think you can claim private industry will provide a cheaper service.
Certainly if you can afford it prompter though.


I think the situation is very similar to education. I personally think everyone is entitled to a decent education (unfortunately only up to grade 12 is covered in Canada) and it seems just a human decency sort of thing that everyone would also be entitled to reasonable health care without having to bankrupt themselves.
You may feel you are better at spending your money than the government but you can't cover unforeseen expensive problems and also, people who are not responsible will doom there children if anything comes up.

Originally Posted by JMS

I am considered the poorest of the poor in my country and I pay for my medical expenses out of my pocket! Imagine that. If I only knew that Americas health care system was geared toward the rich only I may have spent my money on health insurance instead of saving it for a rainy day!
Whenever insurance companies or government get involved in anything prices tend to rise considerably beyond what they would have if it was left up to the free market!
Generally speaking the quality tends to diminish also!

EDIT: In many other countries I would be considered very rich by the way!

Originally Posted by Geoff

I am pleased to hear despite a difficult financial situation you manage to pay for health care.

What of the homeless or people even poorer than yourself though?
What if you have a severe problem? The costs can rapidly run to the hundreds of thousands could you still afford that?

.

Medicaid is the goverment program that provides coverage for the indigent. As often happens, the poorest are taken care of while the working poor and or middle class are out of luck. People are often told to spend down their wealth so they can qualify for Medicaid.

Jordan

I watched Sicko. I am not a fan of Michael Moore, but thought he depicted this subject pretty even handedly and without much bias or trickery that was evident in his earlier films. In this debate, there is a vast divide and people seem to be in 1 of 2 camps: you believe health care is a basic human right and should be provided, or you believe that people are responsible for themselves. I am in the "basic right" side of things and think this is something the government should provide. I am generally in the camp of less government involvement in things in general though which is a bit ironic.

I have an ok job with ok healthcare benefits. "Healthcare" does not include vision or dental - those are generally separate benefits. For example, I had healthcare and dental but not vision for a long time - my workplace did not provide it. Healthcare in the US used to be quite "low-cost" to the people that had insurance because the employer paid it. Copays for doctor visits and prescriptions were mostly low dollar amounts (none to $5-20 per visit/script). In the past 5 or so years though, the cost of healthcare is skyrocketing and employers cannot afford healthcare like they used to. Cost is being passed on to employees or dropped. My healthcare costs haven risen considerably since then mainly through the cost of rising copays. My wife's work, for instance, changed their healthcare plan to the employee having to pay the first $1000 dollars out of pocket before they kick in and start paying. I think this is the type of thing the US is moving to. (Again, only discussing middle of the road, "typical" insurance, granting that there are not "typical" people on the board.)

Dennis

Originally Posted by JMS

I am considered the poorest of the poor in my country and I pay for my medical expenses out of my pocket! Imagine that. If I only knew that Americas health care system was geared toward the rich only I may have spent my money on health insurance instead of saving it for a rainy day!
Whenever insurance companies or government get involved in anything prices tend to rise considerably beyond what they would have if it was left up to the free market!
Generally speaking the quality tends to diminish also!

EDIT: In many other countries I would be considered very rich by the way!

It would seem to me that if you received medical treatment when you were unable to pay, then someone else must have covered your costs. Perhaps the doctor/hospital absorbed it, in which case other patient's bills absorbed your cost (ie, they paid more than their fair share to cover your costs). Or, the government paid for you (ie, via tax revenue... again, others were paying for you). Either way, in a sense, that's sorta a form of socialized medicine isn't it?

If by "poorest of the poor" you mean that you're earning below the Federal poverty level... that's particularly tough in California's high cost of living environment. If you are able to afford pay-as-you-go for medical expenses under those conditions, I can only assume you don't seek medical attention until you have no other choice. I've been there and done that at various points in my life... it seemed to be a pretty good strategy at the time (not that I had a choice) since I never needed to see a doctor anyway. However, now that I'm older I find that such a strategy is not a good idea if you have any other alternative. You never now when a medical catastrophe will strike... more people in their 30's and 40's have strokes, heart attacks, or get cancer than you suspect. Once you're over 60 you start to think of yourself as a walking time bomb from a medical standpoint. And once a medical event occurs it becomes a pre-existing condition, so if you then seek to acquire insurance it will be excluded from your coverage.

Based on the expenses racked up by some of my elder relatives in the past 5 years, I can now see that even if I had been able to save the equivalent of insurance premiums for most of my working life, the accumulated nest egg would not be sufficient to pay for a major illness such as a heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc. Think about it... suppose I had been able to save the equivalent of $200/mo in today's dollars for 40 years... I'd still have less than $100K. If I had invested it along the way at a decent return I might have leveraged that to as much as $350K... still not enough to cover a major heart attack, lung cancer, etc. My sister-in-law spends $1200/month for the drugs she takes for her MS. Two years ago she had breast cancer... $380K in medical bills that year alone. Imagine if she had to pay those out-of-pocket?

Sometimes I think we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I agree with Joe on the need for some kind of coverage. If you are young and relativley healthy, it may be worth looking into a Health Savings Account (HSA). Under this program, you get a high deductible health plan that will kick in and cover the really big bills. At the same time, you are allowed to contribute a certain amount each year into a savings account to be used for health care services. These savings are tax free. The high deductible plan is a lot less expensive than traditional plans, so this way you're not paying the ins. company for a lot of services you don't use.

Jordan

Originally Posted by azjoe

It would seem to me that if you received medical treatment when you were unable to pay, then someone else must have covered your costs. Perhaps the doctor/hospital absorbed it, in which case other patient's bills absorbed your cost (ie, they paid more than their fair share to cover your costs). Or, the government paid for you (ie, via tax revenue... again, others were paying for you). Either way, in a sense, that's sorta a form of socialized medicine isn't it?

If by "poorest of the poor" you mean that you're earning below the Federal poverty level... that's particularly tough in California's high cost of living environment. If you are able to afford pay-as-you-go for medical expenses under those conditions, I can only assume you don't seek medical attention until you have no other choice. I've been there and done that at various points in my life... it seemed to be a pretty good strategy at the time (not that I had a choice) since I never needed to see a doctor anyway. However, now that I'm older I find that such a strategy is not a good idea if you have any other alternative. You never now when a medical catastrophe will strike... more people in their 30's and 40's have strokes, heart attacks, or get cancer than you suspect. Once you're over 60 you start to think of yourself as a walking time bomb from a medical standpoint. And once a medical event occurs it becomes a pre-existing condition, so if you then seek to acquire insurance it will be excluded from your coverage.

Based on the expenses racked up by some of my elder relatives in the past 5 years, I can now see that even if I had been able to save the equivalent of insurance premiums for most of my working life, the accumulated nest egg would not be sufficient to pay for a major illness such as a heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc. Think about it... suppose I had been able to save the equivalent of $200/mo in today's dollars for 40 years... I'd still have less than $100K. If I had invested it along the way at a decent return I might have leveraged that to as much as $350K... still not enough to cover a major heart attack, lung cancer, etc. My sister-in-law spends $1200/month for the drugs she takes for her MS. Two years ago she had breast cancer... $380K in medical bills that year alone. Imagine if she had to pay those out-of-pocket?

Sometimes I think we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I always pay my own way. when I can't afford a necessity I make payments!