Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by JohnP

Russel...
No, they are related.
Post your support for your claim. This thread is about God's existence.

Which claim?

That evolution is known to occur, and is empirically investigable? I have posted links on this, and they're widely available with the generic search engines. One specific example that's pretty interesting is the HIV virus' evolution of the VPU gene, Micheal Behe (leading Intelligent design proponenent) himself admitted that this case exposed errors about the work he has published, link: Talk Reason: arguments against creationism, intelligent design, and religious apologetics. (I don't particularly like the deffensive nature of the article, that is the choice of the author, but the facts remain unchanged)

So an asexually reproducing organism does not require a creator to change things around, evolution is the simpler answer and since it is the only mechanism for biological change that we have ever witnessed, it is head and shoulders above all other assertions for explaining biological diversification.

Originally Posted by JohnP

Likewise, while you have posted links to experiments in the other thread so far you have failed to find any that support your theory that creation should not be allowed in the classroom (the other thread-sorry guys) let alone that it did not happen. Ad nauseum? Not quite.

really? I thought the supreme court cases (someone else's link) and ISSR reference made a pretty air tight case, nevermind the lack of anyone from the creation side to show that their theory even resembles a scientific process.

Originally Posted by JohnP

Answer the ones already posted, and give some links to real evidence; otherwise the logic follows that we would still be reproducing asexually, or that the cells you referenced in the other thread, having gone through the complete evolution process of course, would have developed this trait.

You cannot argue that the lack of direct evidence for every evolutionary step necessary to get from single cells to humans negates the entire theory, or proves that a creator is necessary. It is on the heads of creationists to show the direct evidence of creation, and until that has happened it can only be assumed that evolution was the mechanism, no need for direct observation at this point.

Originally Posted by JohnP

And you have reams of evidence for this first statement? lets see it. Many modern Christian holidays have roots in pagan holidays (the Saturnalia festival, for instance would remind quite a few of modern day "Christmas" (except add in an orgy)and the day to worship the fertility goddess, "Ishtar" is not only the same day as we celebrate "Easter" but even was pronounced the same way-many things were done for political reasons in early Christianity and indeed the newly "converted" Roman Empire) however NONE of these are suggested observances in the Biblical texts.
So...please do post links that support your claims, both of the Bible being based on "Roman paganism" (the way I read the thing, it is heavily infused with the Jewish religion, not Roman) and that Jesus is one of "17 at the latest count, in the god become man series"-the latest account according to whom.
????
Mock if you wish, believe what you wish-but if you are to make arguments based on external facts, link to some information; I promise I will consider them; otherwise it is just so much he-said, she-said. If you choose Paganism, Atheism, or whatever, be my guest-but unless you have some sort of conclusive evidence that one or the other ideas are superior, remember we are all in this same boat and none of these ideas has been proven.

John P.

First, there is too much material to post here but it's readily available. Your taunt/challenge does not, in my opinion, constitute an invalidation of the massive amount information available. Alas, I'm sure you would find reason to disqualify most of it because it isn't sanctioned by the church..

Second, let's see some of your conclusive evidence. By the way, this isn't the first time you've used this statement.

Lastly, you seem to enjoy playing the provocateur, and while I would very much enjoy a more heated debate, this is a gentleman's forum and I respect everyone here, even those who disagree with my viewpoints.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I think you're right.
This isn't supposed to be a Christian theology discorse...

Fait enough. Thanks for the fencing, guys.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I know it is supposed to show us the changed the relationship between us.
But before that happened, god was vengeful, and had no qualms killing innocents. Is it fair to punish people who did nothing wrong?
No. And it wasn't then either. If someone commits a crime, we do not prosecute his or her children because that is wrong.

As for the pharaoh... If god had beef with the pharaoh, why take it out on the population? why not smite the pharaoh. Or have his kids get the plague? But no.

sodom and gomorrah? Do you honestly believe that you have a city full of people and everybody is a grave sinner who deserves death? Even the people just trying to make a living? Even the kids going to school or playing in the yard?

And only noah righteous before God? so the rest of the people trying to make a living and basically treating each other like normal human being suddenly deserve death?



And this basically makes my point.
If God thinks it is OK to doom unborn generations, just because someone bothers him, then he is a petty god in my eyes. If someone'd do the same thing here on earth, we'd shame that person and protect the innocent.

The problem with the difference between our viewpoints is that we're looking at these things from different perspectives.

You see death as a terrible punishment and an ending.

People who believe in God don't. (Or at least don't in theory.)

To be honest...if my family died and was taken from me in someway. Offcourse I'd be terrible sad, crushed even. But on the other hand I'm not too worried about that because I know I'm going to see them again.

You see things from a "this life" perspective. I see things from an "eternity" perspective. And that tends to make death less of an issue.

As for Sodom and Gomorra....were you there? Then you don't know. You might want to remember the discussion God had with Abraham before He destroyed the place.

Abraham asked Him is he would refrain from destroying the place if he found an x number of rightous men. He said yes, I will.

Then Abraham asked again with a lower number. God conceded.

This went on untill Abraham asked that he not destroy the city if it had even 1 rightous person living in it. And once again god conceded....

Supposedly what used to be those cities is now the dead sea.......

Death is horrible to someone that doesn't strongly believe in an afterlife.....it's a bad moment for someone that does.

Originally Posted by mischievous

Lastly, you seem to enjoy playing the provocateur, and while I would very much enjoy a more heated debate, this is a gentleman's forum and I respect everyone here, even those who disagree with my viewpoints.

That is a statement with which I'd take a long hard look in the mirror if I were you. You've been making quite a few provocative statements yourself.

Thank you for wanting to keep things within the spirit of the forum though.

As asked and conceded, I will not continue this old-testamental diversion because it wasn;t the point of this thread. I don't agree with you, but I am not going to go into it.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

To be honest...if my family died and was taken from me in someway. Offcourse I'd be terrible sad, crushed even. But on the other hand I'm not too worried about that because I know I'm going to see them again.

No you don't. You think you will. You believe it with all your heart. You are absolutely surely convinced.
But you don't know.
And even if you would, there would always be the chance that they don't end up in the same place as you.

Btw I don't know how the marriage vows are in your church, but when I said 'I do' to the minister in California, we promised 'till death do us part'. After that, all bets are off.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

You see things from a "this life" perspective. I see things from an "eternity" perspective. And that tends to make death less of an issue.

'this life' is what we have to work with. It's precious. It's the only thing we can rely on, and the only thing about which there is no debate whether it exists or not. (except for some religions which claim life is a dream)

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Death is horrible to someone that doesn't strongly believe in an afterlife.....it's a bad moment for someone that does.

I don't know if there is an afterlife. Frankly, I hope there is, and that I will go to valhalla. And if I get shaky hands when I get older, I might yet get to die by the blade.
but I suspect that if there is an afterlife, it will be somewhat different from what we expect.
my pov is that since we can't know if there is an afterlife, we should hold life dear as if there isn't.

Originally Posted by Bruno

No you don't. You think you will. You believe it with all your heart. You are absolutely surely convinced.
But you don't know.

I'm sorry Bruno...but I do KNOW. I also know that you probablty don't believe that and I can't prove it to you in any way because it's a very personal thing. I also know that anyone can find out for themselves if they really want to know and search for it in a way that they won't reject the answer when they get it.

Sorry Bruno. For me there is no debate. And that's not because I haven't heard all the arguments. I relish new information on anything really. I've researched and searched and nothing so far has collided with what I know to be true.

And even if you would, there would always be the chance that they don't end up in the same place as you.

This is true. But I have faith in both my wife and my son (though he is but young) that they will be.

Btw I don't know how the marriage vows are in your church, but when I said 'I do' to the minister in California, we promised 'till death do us part'. After that, all bets are off.

Not me, I was sealed for "time and all eternity". (ps..this doesn't mean that we're stuck for all time if we don't want to be...just that we can be if we work hard on it)

'this life' is what we have to work with. It's precious. It's the only thing we can rely on, and the only thing about which there is no debate whether it exists or not. (except for some religions which claim life is a dream)

Sorry Bruno, I agree that life is precious. But I've found much that I can rely on besides this life. Besides....debate doesn't equal reality. I don't care much for debate. Discussion....yes. Debate....not really

I don't know if there is an afterlife. Frankly, I hope there is, and that I will go to valhalla. And if I get shaky hands when I get older, I might yet get to die by the blade.
but I suspect that if there is an afterlife, it will be somewhat different from what we expect.
my pov is that since we can't know if there is an afterlife, we should hold life dear as if there isn't.

Don't worry....I'll see you there. And yes...every day should be lived as if it could be the last. It's important and precious. We get time to learn and to grow here on earth and not to do that is a waste.

Let's just say that we agree on our outlook for this life and that the discussion on the next one is still open.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

That is a statement with which I'd take a long hard look in the mirror if I were you. You've been making quite a few provocative statements yourself.

Thank you for wanting to keep things within the spirit of the forum though.

I did go and look at my previous posts and I don't agree. Some are more mischievous (see user name), I'll agree to that. On another thread I did clarify my intended meaning, as in sarcasm, when the need arose.

My statement was directed at another member here and what I have perceived as taunting.You might draw the same conclusion from some of their previous postings, you might not.

I have not.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

I
Let's just say that we agree on our outlook for this life and that the discussion on the next one is still open.

That would be a nice conclusion of our discussion.
Motion granted.