Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

This is really opening up a can of worms!

There is not much in the bible that is original, most of it is borrowed from Roman paganism as well as from earlier times and other cultures. Jesus is one of many, more than 17 at the latest count, in the god become man series.

And in the beginning Man created God. Unless you believe otherwise of course.

Originally Posted by Bruno

You've been out-quizzed by a pagan
Actually I find that I know more about catholicism than most catholics. Probably because I've taken the time to think about my arguments.
EDIT: I know you are not a catholic. It was just a general observation.

As for why I have problems with the Old Testamentual acts: While we can debate about how God was treated, there are several things that don't fit that argument.
- What about the hundreds of thousands of infants that got killed when He was in a dark mood. They surely didn't deserve it.
- What did Job ever do wrong?

Hahaha, yeah, but as you already noticed...I'm not catholic and wasn't raised by one either. So while I do agree with that rule....it's not in the ten commandments (check Exodus 20 if you like, they're also in Deuteronomy and can all be found on wikipedia.)

I don't know what reference you're talking about as to the infants at the moment. Although I've read the bible quite thouroughly I don't remember EVERYthing from it by heart.

As for Job...it was a trial that allowed God to bless him even more in the end. In reality....blessings always come only AFTER the trail. And the same was true for Job.

Also as an interesting sidenote scholars still don't know for sure if the story of Job was to be taken literally or whether it's a parable.

As for Misschievous' remark that nothing in the Bible is original....uhm...I beg to differ. The Old testament is certainly older than the writing from Roman times....in fact if the year/generation count in the bible is correct then the original texts are around 6000 years old.

The different translations including the Torah and Quran versions of it however are an intirely different discussion but I won't go into that.

As for the God was created by men thing.....that argument is getting a bit tiring. Besides...if you KNEW (not merely believed that to be true) you'd have evidence. And since the only way that God can be either scientifically proven or disproven would be Him coming and telling everyone, He must've told you that He doesn't exist.....oh wait...that can't be right.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

I don't know what reference you're talking about as to the infants at the moment. Although I've read the bible quite thouroughly I don't remember EVERYthing from it by heart.

As for Job...it was a trial that allowed God to bless him even more in the end. In reality....blessings always come only AFTER the trail. And the same was true for Job.

The infants I refer to were not specifically mentioned (or at least: it's been a while since I read the bible) but if you rain down 10 plagues (egypt) or level whole cities (sodom and gomorrah) or flood an entire region (noah), or...

The innocent die along with the guilty. 'Kill them all and let God sort them out' has been used as an argument, but in this case it was God doing the killing in wholesale quantitis without regard for anything except his favored few.

As for Job: you have a wife and kid. If God takes them away from you forever (kills them), will you feel blessed in the end? Will your new wife and 3 more children make you feel that God really did you a favor? (like: I had x, now I have Y, Yaay!)?
You can argue that it was a test of faith, but otoh it does mean that god kills innocents in brutal ways, just to make a point.
from there you can argue that he makes up for it in the afterlife, but that is a very dangerous argument because it can be used to justify anything in the name of faith.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I actually read the OT when I was younger. If it were a movie it would be R rated.

NC17 if you include the 23rd chapter of Ezekiel, I think.

but anyway, I agree. the book of Job alone would have been enough to make me become an atheist.

Originally Posted by Bruno

As for why I have problems with the Old Testamentual acts: While we can debate about how God was treated, there are several things that don't fit that argument.
- What about the hundreds of thousands of infants that got killed when He was in a dark mood. They surely didn't deserve it.
- What did Job ever do wrong?

(Bruno, you could be referring to the flood? Or the last plague in Egypt?) Isn't God the same in the New Testament? Millions are killed in the last book

I do recall reading though that when Jesus was born, the angels said, "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men." Maybe Jesus makes a difference in God's relationship with man and vice versa

What did Job ever do wrong? Read the book and find out Job 38 might be an interesting read for anyone particularly interested in this thread or in the creationism thread. Let me tease you a little:

Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand...

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I do recall reading though that when Jesus was born, the angels said, "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men." Maybe Jesus makes a difference in God's relationship with man and vice versa

Perhaps, but it didn't make his behavior then any better.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

What did Job ever do wrong? Read the book and find out Job 38 might be an interesting read for anyone particularly interested in this thread or in the creationism thread. Let me tease you a little:

I don't really care if Job had it coming or not.
But did his wife / kids have to be killed for his sin (if there was any)?

EDIT: I can't find a reference right now, so I have to retract this statement.
Either I read it and it was a different version of the story, or I was wrong all along. (It's been known to happen)


Incidentally, God also had absolutely no problem with slavery at all, since in the end he rewarded Job with even more slaves than he had had in the beginning.

What did the slaves do wrong that earned them slavery from birth?
Mixed messages from this 'Good and loving' god, since slavery is a pretty amoral and cruel thing.

Originally Posted by Bruno

What did the slaves do wrong that earned them slavery from birth?
Mixed messages from this 'Good and loving' god, since slavery is a pretty amoral and cruel thing.

or maybe, just maybe, the people who wrote the stories made up a story that had context valid to them. the ancient hebrews were big fans of slavery, evidently. note that when L. Ron Hubbard wrote HIS holy books, he spoke of atom bombs and DC3s.

I guess holy book authors write what they know when they are creating mythology, eh?

Originally Posted by Bruno

Perhaps, but it didn't make his behavior then any better.
I don't really care if Job had it coming or not.
But did his wife / kids have to be killed for his sin (if there was any)?

Were they even killed for his sin (if there was any?) Isn't that an assumption? You'll have to read the book

Originally Posted by Bruno

Incidentally, God also had absolutely no problem with slavery at all, since in the end he rewarded Job with even more slaves than he had had in the beginning.
What did the slaves do wrong that earned them slavery from birth?

You don't earn anything from birth - like you said, they were born slaves

Originally Posted by Bruno

Mixed messages from this 'Good and loving' god, since slavery is a pretty amoral and cruel thing.

I don't understand - are you saying that God instituted slavery? Or that he supports it by not smiting the slaveowners? (I also don't know that Job even had any slaves - read the book!)

Originally Posted by Bruno

Perhaps, but it didn't make his behavior then any better.



I don't really care if Job had it coming or not.
But did his wife / kids have to be killed for his sin (if there was any)?

Do you know what happened to the wife & kids after the died?

Perhaps God took good care of them?