Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

In the reference frame of humanity, everyone is born a human. Like I mentioned, it isn't man's claim that makes it true. Either it's true or it isn't, and it really isn't up to us to decide the truth, but it is up to us to decide what we will believe is true

And then others will decide to believe there is no absolute truth too - there's another reference frame

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Craig,

Exactly, in the reference frame of Christianity, everyone is born a "slave".

In the reference frame of India untill the mid 1900's (not sure of it's prominence anymore), everyone was born into a caste.

Just because some reference frame makes a claim, it does not make it true. They are both conventional beliefs that are equally unsubstantiated.

Lee,

But the real solution would be to take the high road and absolve everyone because of their innate innocence and offer them support and blessing without the threat of punishment for refusing that support. The fact that it happens in real life does not make it any more unjust.

A different problem is that there are different beliefs on the subject by different Christian groups.

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and as such, the views of the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and academic scholars may vary greatly from the Orthodox viewpoint.

Here is a snippet from the ubiquitous Wiki:

Original sin
To place the term original sin in context: God created man perfect with free will and gave man a direction to follow. Man (Adam) and Woman (Eve) chose rather to disobey God by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thus changing the "perfect" mode of existence of man to the "flawed" mode of existence of man. This flawed nature and all that has come from it is a result of that Original Sin. Because we participate in humanity, we share in the sin of Adam because like him, we are human. The union of humanity with divinity in Jesus Christ restored, in the Person of Christ, the mode of existence of humanity, so that those who are incorporated in him may participate in this mode of existence, be saved from sin and death, and be united to God in deification. Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism or, in the case of the Theotokos, the moment Christ took form within her.
However, this view differs from the Roman Catholic (Augustinian) doctrine of Original Sin in that man is not seen as inherently guilty of the sin of Adam. According to the Orthodox, we inherit the consequences of that sin, not the guilt. The difference came about because Augustine interpreted a Latin translation of Romans 5:12 as meaning that through Adam all men sinned, whereas the Orthodox reading in Greek interpret it as meaning that we all sin as part of the inheritance of flawed nature from Adam. Therefore, the Orthodox Church does not teach that we are born deserving to go to hell and Protestant doctrines such as Predeterminism that result from the Augustinian understanding of Original Sin are not a part of Orthodox belief.
In the book Ancestral Sin, John S. Romanides addresses the concept of Original sin, which he understands to mean that people under ancestral sin, inherit the sins of previous generations. Father Romanides asserts that this is not a tenet of the Orthodox faith. Father Romanides works out through scripture and patristics that original sin is not a doctrine of the church and is not cohesive with the Eastern Orthodox faith. In his view, the doctrine of Original Sin is an invention of later church fathers such as Saint Augustine. In the realm of ascetics it is by choice not birth that one takes on the sins of the world.[6]

In other words, it is pretty much in our nature to be strong headed, and not willing to submit ourselves to God.

Why would God make us with free will, and thus strong headed, etc?

The way I view it: Do you want someone to love you because they choose to love you, or because you force them to?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Do you want someone to love you because they choose to love you, or because you force them to?

Oh, he may not be forcing us with a gun to our heads, but eternal punishment is a pretty strong motivator.

My point is that if you want someone to make an objective decision, and thus a truly honest decision, you can't offer rewards, nor threaten punishment.

Giving someone your love because they offer to pay you for it isn't an objective decision and isn't a good thing for that matter, rather the converse is true.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Oh, he may not be forcing us with a gun to our heads, but eternal punishment is a pretty strong motivator.

My point is that if you want someone to make an objective decision, and thus a truly honest decision, you can't offer rewards, nor threaten punishment.

Giving someone your love because they offer to pay you for it isn't an objective decision and isn't a good thing for that matter, rather the converse is true.

Again, there are many possible interpretations of what "eternal punishment" is.

Let's say "paradise" is eternity with God himself. And "eternal punishment" is total separation from God for eternity.

What if it is as simple as the decision to either want to be with Him, or wanting nothing to do with Him? And the choice is in our hands, not His?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Again, there are many possible interpretations of what "eternal punishment" is.

doesn't really matter, the implied connotation is that it is an undesirable outcome, and thus can only be regarded as coercion.

ever hear of a guy named Jonathan Edwards?

It also depends on the image you choose for God.

I personally am not fond of many characteristics of the gods in history thus far, sometimes they're fairly petty.

Though there's a new kid on the block that has caught my attention, his is the way of noodly goodness and is covered in delicious maranara sauce. I could spend an eternity in the company of His Noodliness!

RAmen!

Russell, every decision has consequences attached to it, and when they are moral consequences then are they rewards and punishments? You can make your own choices regardless of external circumstances, unless you truly are just a collection of exclusively behaviorally responsive tissues and electrical pulses

I can be honest regardless of consequences, and I don't see why anyone couldn't be. Even under extreme conditions I would have to relinquish my own will before I could be forced to agree in my heart to one thing or another.

Is free will an illusion?

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

It also depends on the image you choose for God.

I personally am not fond of many characteristics of the gods in history thus far, sometimes they're fairly petty.

Though there's a new kid on the block that has caught my attention, his is the way of noodly goodness and is covered in delicious maranara sauce. I could spend an eternity in the company of His Noodliness!

RAmen!

Marinara sauce on ramen?!

Now THAT is sacriledge!

In Fukuoka Japan, they have little outdoor stalls/booths that serve up awesome authentic ramen to fortify business men intent on an evening of drinking..er, I mean business discussions!

Here's me at such an establishment (hint: I'm the gaijin...)

I wasn't wearing my reading glasses.... at first i thought it said noody goddess. I was attentive for a brief moment.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

It also depends on the image you choose for God.

I personally am not fond of many characteristics of the gods in history thus far, sometimes they're fairly petty.

Though there's a new kid on the block that has caught my attention, his is the way of noodly goodness and is covered in delicious maranara sauce. I could spend an eternity in the company of His Noodliness!

RAmen!

Ahhhhh another brother of the FSM!

Glad to have you!

Also, I'm sorry guys but I had to add some gasoline to the fire...

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca the Younger