Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by mischievous

Sounds a bit too much like creationism. Old Earth Creationism.

There's an interesting NOVA television program that addresses a case involving the Dover, PA. school district and the teaching of creationism in a public school setting. It set precedence in PA. and will be used in the future when this come up again. They address similar issues like this.

Dover lost, thank goodness, and this has set the creationist agenda back significantly. Yet the threat still remains, very near here is a multi-million dollar facility devoted to the pandering of creationist drivel. Embarrassing and frightening.

This reminds me gents. This is a discussion on God....NOT on creationism. We actually have a separate topic about that at the moment. If you wish to discuss that please do it there. Not here. (This counts for everyone, Russel and JohnP as well.)

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

This reminds me gents. This is a discussion on God....NOT on creationism. We actually have a separate topic about that at the moment. If you wish to discuss that please do it there. Not here. (This counts for everyone, Russel and JohnP as well.)

Sometimes I like Vlad! I crack myself up!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

So, what to make of this?

i would say that statistically, it's far more likely that his wife cheated on him than a 2000 year old piece of dogwood has survived so long being constantly touched by people and exposed to air, wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by jockeys

i would say that statistically, it's far more likely that his wife cheated on him than a 2000 year old piece of dogwood has survived so long being constantly touched by people and exposed to air, wouldn't you?

They also had a second child about a year and a half later.
Both kids look alot like the father (the husband, for the sake of clarity!)

The wood was encased in a silver box of some sort.

Seraphim, SURELY there is a natural (that is to say, completely and wholly separate from any supernatural influence) explanation for what happened. You cannot expect us to BELIEVE that God exists from the story of someone praying to God and getting what they prayed for against the known odds

In fact, there is nothing God can do that we can't explain for in the natural. Of course, we aren't sure how any metaphysical influence could cause anything to happen in the natural without natural implications by which we say God does not exist, but that's beside the point

Wow, you've really caught on, Lee!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

They also had a second child about a year and a half later.
Both kids look alot like the father (the husband, for the sake of clarity!)

The wood was encased in a silver box of some sort.

my remark was intended to be facetious, but whether it's literal or not is immaterial.

correlation, should it exist, (and I don't think it does, in your example) is still not the same thing as causality.

there is a very high correlation between people being given sugar pills and people experiencing medical recoveries. and yet, no one thinks it is the sugar that is curing them, despite the correlation.


maybe I should worship sugar pills, eh? besides, snake-oil salesmen the world over have been claiming to have pieces of the True Cross in their reliquaries for years, there's been plenty of "miracles" resulting from contact with these alleged fragments, regardless of veracity. today, we call it the placebo effect. back then, it was called a miracle.

Originally Posted by jockeys

my remark was intended to be facetious, but whether it's literal or not is immaterial.

correlation, should it exist, (and I don't think it does, in your example) is still not the same thing as causality.

there is a very high correlation between people being given sugar pills and people experiencing medical recoveries. and yet, no one thinks it is the sugar that is curing them, despite the correlation.


maybe I should worship sugar pills, eh? besides, snake-oil salesmen the world over have been claiming to have pieces of the True Cross in their reliquaries for years, there's been plenty of "miracles" resulting from contact with these alleged fragments, regardless of veracity. today, we call it the placebo effect. back then, it was called a miracle.

Second part of the correlation: after the first child, the couple went to see another priestmonk, to tell him their "miracle" story. They also wanted his opinion on whether it would be asking too much, if they were to ask God for a second child. Seeing as the first one was such a miracle. The priestmonk said that it would be perfectly alright to do so, and that he would pray for them as well.

Two weeks later they found out they were pregnant again.



Placebos can make someone "feel" better. Can they fix a broken arm? Cure low FSG levels? Fix the tubes that go through where a hernia scar occurs in the abdominal wall?

Are you now saying that mind power is responsible for curing things? Uri Geller can come out of retirement!

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Seraphim, SURELY there is a natural (that is to say, completely and wholly separate from any supernatural influence) explanation for what happened. You cannot expect us to BELIEVE that God exists from the story of someone praying to God and getting what they prayed for against the known odds

In fact, there is nothing God can do that we can't explain for in the natural. Of course, we aren't sure how any metaphysical influence could cause anything to happen in the natural without natural implications by which we say God does not exist, but that's beside the point

OK, so why are things that pertain to God classified as supernatural?

If God truly does exist, then everything is part of his creation, and all He does is "natural".


I don't expect you to BELIEVE in God because of the story I related to you. You are free to do as you choose.

I was just adding a true life story to the discussion, as the discussion had been focussing on philosophical fencing matches about the issues.

I will also add this about myself: I used to be completely in the "other camp". I thought religion, and Christianity in particular was a load of baloney at best. So, pretty much all you guys have said are things that I myself used to hold as my reality as well.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

OK, so why are things that pertain to God classified as supernatural?

Because they are

Originally Posted by Seraphim

If God truly does exist, then everything is part of his creation, and all He does is "natural".

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I don't expect you to BELIEVE in God because of the story I related to you. You are free to do as you choose.

I was just adding a true life story to the discussion, as the discussion had been focussing on philosophical fencing matches about the issues.

I appreciate it; God isn't dead

My post you replied to is a very poor argument against God. I played the materialist's advocate for a moment. Russell was so excited, too