Thread: The Ukraine Situation

WOW, can of worms here!!

To think that the U.S. has the ability to add countries at will to join NATO is a joke.
Countries must WANT to join and are Unanimously voted in if it does happen at all.
If invading another county unprovoked to conquer the people and "aquire" the country is acceptable to anyone, I feel for you.
Going backwards is where this is headed for Russia. This will cost the people who live there and everyone else as well.
If anyone thinks Germany and France will not defend NATO countries think again.
Putin lies, cannot be trusted by anyone and China will watch as a precedent to what would happen if they decide to do the same.
Who will be the next if nothing is done.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

WOW, can of worms here!!

To think that the U.S. has the ability to add countries at will to join NATO is a joke.
Countries must WANT to join and are Unanimously voted in if it does happen at all.
If invading another county unprovoked to conquer the people and "aquire" the country is acceptable to anyone, I feel for you.
Going backwards is where this is headed for Russia. This will cost the people who live there and everyone else as well.
If anyone thinks Germany and France will not defend NATO countries think again.
Putin lies, cannot be trusted by anyone and China will watch as a precedent to what would happen if they decide to do the same.
Who will be the next if nothing is done.

I will freely admit that I don't know what I'm alking about.

I thought Ukrain was in NATO already, if that is the case why aren't the Nato countries already in Ukrain. I thought that was what NATO was all about, looking after each other.

Like I said, I don't know what I'm talking about probably.

I think the real danger here is Russia could launch crippling cyber attacks in the U.S and NATO countries which could bring them to their knees. That could be viewed as an act of war.

Things could deteriorate badly in Ukraine and casualties could start to pile up massively.

That's why this is a very dangerous game. Putin holds the key. Does he really have a plan here.

He refers to history and how Ukraine has been related to Russia thus giving him justifications.

Well, what if Mexico invaded Texas and New Mexico or Britain invaded Canada?

On the other hand what if Mexico signed a treaty with Russia and he put ICBMs 100 miles south of El Paso? Oh, wait we went through that with Cuba.

By the way I entitled this thread "The Ukraine" not referring to the country title but to the situation or crisis.

Originally Posted by STF

I will freely admit that I don't know what I'm alking about.

I thought Ukrain was in NATO already, if that is the case why aren't the Nato countries already in Ukrain. I thought that was what NATO was all about, looking after each other.

Like I said, I don't know what I'm talking about probably.

No they are not part.
The sole reason for the invasion is because they want to be part of NATO and Russia will not allow it - ever!
And yes, that is what NATO is about. Slogan - an attack on one is an attack on all.
The fear from the Baltic states is this will continue to them which NATO is already preparing for collectively.
It will be world war if Russia attempts to invade any of them.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think the real danger here is Russia could launch crippling cyber attacks in the U.S and NATO countries which could bring them to their knees. That could be viewed as an act of war.

Things could deteriorate badly in Ukraine and casualties could start to pile up massively.

That's why this is a very dangerous game. Putin holds the key. Does he really have a plan here.

He refers to history and how Ukraine has been related to Russia thus giving him justifications.

Well, what if Mexico invaded Texas and New Mexico or Britain invaded Canada?

On the other hand what if Mexico signed a treaty with Russia and he put ICBMs 100 miles south of El Paso? Oh, wait we went through that with Cuba.

By the way I entitled this thread "The Ukraine" not referring to the country title but to the situation or crisis.

Don't even joke about a war between Britain and Canada. I am English and also a Citizen of Canada,.

I would of course fight for Canada (probably), but against my family in England!!

Thanks Spendur, I doubt if I can ever sleep again.

Originally Posted by STF

Don't even joke about a war between Britain and Canada. I am English and also a Citizen of Canada,.

I would of course fight for Canada (probably), but against my family in England!!

Thanks Spendur, I doubt if I can ever sleep again.

Now you know how some Russians and Ukrainians are feeling right now. They are in that boat right now.

Bob

Yes, Putin knows Ukraine is not in NATO and is using that to his advantage. He knows full well NATO can't militarily counter him in Ukraine because the NATO charter only concerns NATO countries. The Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, are NATO members and if Putin were to attack anyone of them it would trigger a direct military response on Russia from NATO. I have no idea if Putin is nuts enough to do that and run a real risk of starting WWIII. Your guess is as good as mine or the next guys regarding that. Lets hope not anyway.

Bob

Well, I see this from a totally different perspective. This is all about money, greed, control and power. No political gains or land acquisitions. Putin isn't a stupid man. Far from it! The world is trying to change the carbon footprint of everything. Fossil fuel will take a backseat in the near future. That means more electric modes of all transportation.

How, you say, does that have anything to do with this? Lithium! Ukraine has large deposits of lithium. Control the lithium and you control the market and maybe the world when it comes batteries that will be needed to power all the transportation. Maybe not today but tomorrow. There are also large deposits of lithium in South America countries. Who are their allies? Why Russia of course.

Besides, Ukraine is and has always been part of Russia. It is what it is!

Originally Posted by Johntoad57

Well, I see this from a totally different perspective. This is all about money, greed, control and power. No political gains or land acquisitions. Putin isn't a stupid man. Far from it! The world is trying to change the carbon footprint of everything. Fossil fuel will take a backseat in the near future. That means more electric modes of all transportation.

How, you say, does that have anything to do with this? Lithium! Ukraine has large deposits of lithium. Control the lithium and you control the market and maybe the world when it comes batteries that will be needed to power all the transportation. Maybe not today but tomorrow. There are also large deposits of lithium in South America countries. Who are their allies? Why Russia of course.

Besides, Ukraine is and has always been part of Russia. It is what it is!

Yes and Texas and N.M and Southern California was always part of Mexico and Spain. We pretty much forced them out but there are still many spanish speaking folks there and many who look fondly on Mexico.

It is what it is. Does that give Mexico a right to want it back?

My view is Putin wants a buffer from the West first and foremost. After that he has a score of types to settle with Ukraine and that is driving him.

Ukraine might have been part of Russia but they have their own language and culture apart from Russia. In a way it's like Hawaii. It's a state now but they had a King and their own language and culture too and still do.

Both World Wars were escalated by treaties with "All for One" clauses like Article 5, I would like to think we have learned from the past..

It is quite apparent that we haven't ..

The USA is war weary, other than the Washington Elites, I haven't heard one person on either side of the aisle call for US troop involvement.
Personally, yes I want to help, but I don't think the USA or NATO is in any position to get involved right now..

2/3 of NATO haven't paid what they owe in years, perhaps this might incentivize them..
Sweden and Finland were warned about joining NATO, but they also have pretty capable forces that would really help bolster NATO and deter Putin if they joined..

Russian Federation's foreign affairs spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said yesterday: "Finland and Sweden should not base their security on damaging the security of other countries and their accession to NATO can have detrimental consequences and face some military and political consequences."

Looking at a map you can see why that is a fear for Russia, the Baltic is easily choked off, BTW can somebody explain Kallingrad to me ?? I don't get that arraignment at all. Yes I already searched it and read but it still makes no sense..

Although I have zero proof my opinion is that Ukraine was denied NATO membership because everyone felt this was coming, the opposite was also a possibility that NATO membership might have stayed Putin's hand.. It is also my understanding that Ukraine deployed troops to Afghanistan with NATO, how does that work ???
We won't really know until Putin threatens a NATO country ..
My biggest fear right now is the Media Talking Heads mentioning that, "Cyber-Attacks" could trigger Article 5, talk like that worries me ...


I admire the Ukrainian people and their spirit to fight, but I fear for innocent lives, not sure if you have seen and heard the vid of the Russian APC crushing a fleeing Ukrainian car, that is pretty shocking as to how brutal war is ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCBaH1Pjywc

My understanding is the civilian in the car survived as of now