The Ukraine Situation

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Originally Posted by STF

Coincidentally, Glen suggested a book to me not so long ago. The Last Ship, it illustrated the aftermath of a global nuclear strike very well, definitely worth a read. It's pretty heavy going because the author is very wordy but a good story line , accurate and certainly worth adding to your reading list.

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The "One Minute After" series might pique your interest too, really more about how to deal with the aftermath of just a EMP attack
Zero politics, just life after the switch gets turned off

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

Prior to 1991, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and had Soviet nuclear weapons in its territory.

On December 1, 1991, Ukraine, the second most powerful republic in the Soviet Union (USSR), voted overwhelmingly for independence, which ended any realistic chance of the Soviet Union staying together even on a limited scale.[1] More than 90% of the electorate expressed their support for Ukraine's declaration of independence, and they elected the chairman of the parliament, Leonid Kravchuk as the first president of the country. At the meetings in Brest, Belarus on December 8, and in Alma Ata on December 21, the leaders of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine formally dissolved the Soviet Union and formed the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS).

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one-third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third-largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production.[2] 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totalling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.[3] Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.[4] In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).

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How could/would I argue that. That contained in the links I had previously posted. Along with NATO not giving any assures regarding the continued independence of Ukraine but the US, UK, Russia and to a lesser extent China did.

Bob

Former NATO and Ukraine Ambassador/Special Rep Kurt Volker, just agreed with my idea of sending A-10's for the Ukrainians to fly, maybe not so crazy

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Former NATO and Ukraine Ambassador/Special Rep Kurt Volker, just agreed with my idea of sending A-10's for the Ukrainians to fly, maybe not so crazy

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No one said it was crazy to give the Ukrainians A=10s to fly. It would be entirely another matter if US pilots flew the A-10s in Ukraine against the Russians. If Ukraine does go after that long stalled Russian column north of Kyiv the Ukraine had better be able to muster air superiority over that column while the A-10s go into attack.

Bob

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Originally Posted by STF

As soon as one side fires Nukes (Global Nukes), the other side knows it and fires their's in return. The destruction of the world, or at least the people is just about guaranteed. There won't be any winners.

Forget duck and cover, forget fallout shelters unless you qualify for the Govt ones.

Nuclear winter would stop anything growing and result in the next ice age. I'm not talking crops not growing because they would be inedible due to radiation fallout, I'm talking the trees that make oxygen for us to breathe.

I attended a lot of lectures and did a lot of NBC training, there is no way I want to survive a global nuclear exchange.
It is a moot point anyway because unless your fallout shelter has air scrubbers like the space station your not going to live and radiation sickness is not nice, plus it will kill you without a doubt.

Coincidentally, Glen suggested a book to me not so long ago. The Last Ship, it illustrated the aftermath of a global nuclear strike very well, definitely worth a read. It's pretty heavy going because the author is very wordy but a good story line , accurate and certainly worth adding to your reading list.

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Sorry I missed this post Steve. Yea, I had some training in the Canadian Naval Reserve regarding nuclear blasts and their effects also. Those and doing nuclear transit drills and deep shelter stations while at sea left a lasting impression alright. For the average person nuclear war means they are crispy critters, lots of them.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

No one said it was crazy to give the Ukrainians A=10s to fly. It would be entirely another matter if US pilots flew the A-10s in Ukraine against the Russians.
Bob

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Nobody ever said anything about American pilots flying them :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Nobody ever said anything about American pilots flying them :hmmm:

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You are right, you never said anything about American pilots flying them. I said if that was the case it would be a crazy idea. The again there many other countries sending military aid into Ukraine also. Give them all the help you can short of starting a war with Russia itself at this point.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

How could/would I argue that. That contained in the links I had previously posted. Along with NATO not giving any assures regarding the continued independence of Ukraine but the US, UK, Russia and to a lesser extent China did.

Bob

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It's really not as simple as that. In reality Ukraine like the other countries having nukes after the breakup of the USSR were put under tremendous pressure and were threatened with sanctions if they didn't disarm. You can argue this and the Treaty of Budapest all you want. Theoretically we promised to protect them but some say only under certain conditions. Russia signed that too so the whole treaty is worthless now.

Well the question of Nukes became a different issue today as Russia just attacked the largest Nuclear Plant in Europe

Chernobyl version 2 anyone ???


I feel good, all the "Experts" say it is doubtful that we will have a leak

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It's really not as simple as that. In reality Ukraine like the other countries having nukes after the breakup of the USSR were put under tremendous pressure and were threatened with sanctions if they didn't disarm. You can argue this and the Treaty of Budapest all you want. Theoretically we promised to protect them but some say only under certain conditions. Russia signed that too so the whole treaty is worthless now.

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No doubt Ukraine came under tremendous pressure to give up the nukes she inherited from the old USSR. However Ukraine did sign the Treaty of Budapest and it is not theoretical that other countries such as the US, UK and Russia gave some sort of reassurance that the Ukraine's Independence would be protected. No doubt the Treaty of Budapest is now worthless considering Russia has invaded Ukraine. That goes without saying.

Bob