Thread: Lives and deaths for freedom

I am posting this in reaction to this thread.
I thought about his all day, and I decided not to reply in that thread because I do not want to hijack it out of respect. But neither did I want to remain silent.

The issue I have is with this sentence:
We must never forget that America has shed more blood defending freedom here and abroad than all the other countries in the world combined.

A quick overview of the WW I and II related deaths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

WW1 total: 19,769,102
WW1 US: 117,465
WW2 total: 72,155,800
WW2 US: 418,500

I will leave politics outside of this, but the number of US deaths in the world wars is literally dwarfed by the that of the other countries by 1 to 180 approximately.
(These numbers include German and Japanese deaths so I cannot count them for freedom, but even then the total number of 'for freedom' deaths is the majority.)

I respect the US soldiers who give and gave their lives for freedom. And I don't know who Fred is or what he stands for. I cannot judge his character or his principles, so I won't.
But to say that the US has spilt more blood for freedom than all other countries combined is a slap in the face of all those brave men women and children who died fighting for freedom, and no politician should be so uninformed to utter such nonsense.

I think the interpretation is the number of US casualties defending freedom in OTHER countries other than our own. At least that's the way that I read it.

And as an aside quoting wikipedia is rarely a good idea in a debate.

*EDIT*
It is interesting that you chose to include civilians of both sides, as well as all of the enemies of freedom, in your calculations.

To quote Lou: "whatever"

Originally Posted by Bruno

I am posting this in reaction to this thread.
I thought about his all day, and I decided not to reply in that thread because I do not want to hijack it out of respect. But neither did I want to remain silent.

The issue I have is with this sentence:
We must never forget that America has shed more blood defending freedom here and abroad than all the other countries in the world combined.

A quick overview of the WW I and II related deaths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

WW1 total: 19,769,102
WW1 US: 117,465
WW2 total: 72,155,800
WW2 US: 418,500

I will leave politics outside of this, but the number of US deaths in the world wars is literally dwarfed by the that of the other countries by 1 to 180 approximately.
(These numbers include German and Japanese deaths so I cannot count them for freedom, but even then the total number of 'for freedom' deaths is the majority.)

I respect the US soldiers who give and gave their lives for freedom. And I don't know who Fred is or what he stands for. I cannot judge his character or his principles, so I won't.
But to say that the US has spilt more blood for freedom than all other countries combined is a slap in the face of all those brave men women and children who died fighting for freedom, and no politician should be so uninformed to utter such nonsense.

Typical.

Show me one other country that has lost more people in defending the freedoms of non-citizens.

Edit: BJRN, you are correct, and I appologize. I have removed the part of this post regarding the actions of Belgium.

I read the quote like Bruno did. It didn't even occur to me that freedom of others was meant (and I would probably object to that statement as well, being as cynical as I am). Whatever Fred Thompson meant, you can argue endlessly about whether or not he's right because of how vague the statement is.

Nevertheless, I don't see why you would post something about the actions of the Belgian government during the second world war, other than try to inflame this thread as much as possible. This clearly is a thread that can get really ugly really quickly, so lets all stay civil.

Originally Posted by mhailey

Typical.

Show me one other country that has lost more people in defending the freedoms of non-citizens.

Belgium?? http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/p...caust.4164.htm

Please. Did I say that we are the world's savior? No. I didn't. We aren't.
If you wanted to incriminate Belgium, you'd better mention the exploits of King Leopold 2 who declared the Congo (zaire) to be his personal property and caused the death of 3 million congolese in order to make him one of the wealthiest people in the world.
In the same spirit, I could remind you that saddam was put in power by the US, and that Iran contra was a dodgy affair as well.

My point was NOT to prove that we are better than you. We aren't. My point was that a US politician has no right to claim that the US has sacrificed more than all other countries combined.

Anytime non-americans like me even mention something that could possibly be interpreted as criticism to the US or the US army we get covered with accusations and scorn.
But a US politician minimizes the sacrifices of the entire rest of the world and we should just nod along and forget about everything the rest of the world did?

again, I edited my post and appologized, it seems that your post and my edit were seconds apart.

Originally Posted by Jonedangerousli

*EDIT*
It is interesting that you chose to include civilians of both sides, as well as all of the enemies of freedom, in your calculations.

To quote Lou: "whatever"

Which is why I added:
(These numbers include German and Japanese deaths so I cannot count them for freedom, but even then the total number of 'for freedom' deaths is the majority.)

I just checked and I made a copy / paste error from the wrong column. total WW1 US casualties were 205,690 instead of 116,708. for that I apologise.

Yes I took total deaths. Not only soldiers died for their country.

But counting only military deaths:
WW1 france 1,397,800
WW2 france 212,000
WW1 russia 1,811,000
WW2 russia 10,700,000

We can discuss statistics for a long time, and debate which deaths and data to include and which not, but that is besides the point. Other people gave their lives too. Heroism and sacrifice are not US only traits.

Hey Bruno, why dont you give us some examples of what other countries did on behalf of another nations or peoples interests, and dont use Wikipedia for your info. Maybe MHailey or Jone can do the same for what America did for other nations and People!

Bjrn, I find it interesting that generally when Americans speak of freedom, it is all inclusive, but that is apparently not so when other nations speak of freedom, or did I read your post wrong?

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which is why I added:
(These numbers include German and Japanese deaths so I cannot count them for freedom, but even then the total number of 'for freedom' deaths is the majority.)

I just checked and I made a copy / paste error from the wrong column. total WW1 US casualties were 205,690 instead of 116,708. for that I apologise.

Yes I took total deaths. Not only soldiers died for their country.

But counting only military deaths:
WW1 france 1,397,800
WW2 france 212,000
WW1 russia 1,811,000
WW2 russia 10,700,000

We can discuss statistics for a long time, and debate which deaths and data to include and which not, but that is besides the point. Other people gave their lives too. Heroism and sacrifice are not US only traits.

Bruno, are you being defensive? I don't believe anyone stated that these traits solely belong to Americans, did they?

In case it was not painfully obvious by now. I did not want to cause strife.

I was on the fence all day about whether to start this thread or not. I knew this is a sensitive topic.
But in the end I decided that our sacrifices should not be dismissed.
My grandfather fought the nazis, got captured and spent a long time in a nazi camp. he survived, but others didn't.