Thread: Political control or a real danger.

I am happy to call it real and a threat. Not because I have seen real evidence for this(I am undecided if it is a direct result of our actions or just a cycle), but for the fact that if we stop treating the planet like it is indestructible, we will lead better lives.
Whether it is real or not, I would still like the cities to not stink of exhaust fumes and rubbish, and I would like the countryside to remain nice.
How can we think that we can pollute the earth without consequences? The direct result may or may not be global warming, but it certainly has an effect on our quality of life now. Just go to the countryside and feel the difference in the environment.
I choose clean air and if that means no global warming to then it is a good step. I would rather err on the side of caution with this. Especially if the benefits in trying to combat it will have a direct effect on our immediate evironment too.

As a prelude - I am a hydrogeologist and I work everyday with climate info - from that perspective global warming has been conclusivelly proven. What the jury is still out on is whether man caused it. If an answer is ever proven I believe that you will find that it is a combination of normal climatic cycles and man.

Climatic cycles are very real - a spectral analysis of long term rainfall will show many of them. There is one cycle that lasts 20-25 years, another at 7-11 years, and of course the annual wet season - dry season. There are also much longer cycles such as those associated with the precession of the planet upon its axis.

It is very possible that we are entering into a cycle of warming but the efforts of man are accelerating the effects and perhaps intensifying the effects. I would not underestimate how sensitive this planet is to change. If you look back in the geologic record you will find that the present day Sahara Desert was once jungle.

Having said all that - politics has certainly grabbed hold of the issue. The manner in which it is being used politically, on both sides, is despicable in my mind.

Sure global warming is happening but mankind is just along for the ride on this big blue ball.

why just a few thousand years ago vast ice sheets covered the earth, in places a mile thick or so the scientist theorize... but today they are nearly all gone.

If you are looking for a root cause of the problem think about that great big ball of fire that we revolve around... that has a direct impact on the surface temperature of all the planets in this solar system.

Another place to look for a root cause is the volcanoes around the earth, most of which are deep under water which impacts the ocean currents as well as warms the oceans.

as an experiment... arrange a rack around a burner on your stove so that a sauce pan can sit 1 inch above the stove top. place one liter of water at room temperature (70F/20C) in the saucepan and fire the flame up to high, with a stopwatch time how long it takes to boil.

then take a second pan also with a liter of water in it and place it on the stove top.. time how long it takes to boil... notice a difference?

Of course there is a another "greenhouse gas" that nobody has tried to make money eliminating and that is water vapor...

Oh yes how can i get on the carbon credit bandwagon... i will gladly plant trees (that you pay for) on my land so you can feel good about yourself and then in my old age I'll have plenty of trees to sell and provide myself with a nice retirement income....

Originally Posted by syslight

Sure global warming is happening but mankind is just along for the ride on this big blue ball.

I'm in complete agreement! For me it's not a question of "is it happening and is it serious"... it is!

The question is whether man's contribution to it is significant? I don't mind taking some steps to reduce man's contributions. But if it's inevitable, I want to spend more money figuring out how to get off this planet than I spend trying to saving it. Unfortunately, we don't know whether it's inevitable, do we?

What irks me the most is all the people that are lining up to make a profit off this...sort of a wag the dog thing in a sense... create a crisis so they can help you solve it (while they make money doing so). As I understand it, Gore's net worth has increased by about $100 million since he left office and most of it is attributable to his "global warming" activities.

As they say... just follow the money

Is global warming real? yes, Is this really in question.

Do we contribute to the warming? The evidence I have seen seems to indicate so.

Is it a political tool? yesss, doh!

Will it endanger the planet? No

Will it endanger life as we know it? yes

Can we do anything about it? who knows

Although I do believe in energy conservation and the need for alternative clean fuels even if they have nothing to do with global warming.

Global warming is a touchy subject! Is it not possible that the instruments with which we measure temperature change are much more accurate now?
And why has one of Her Majesty's Judges in Great Britain ordered that if AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH is shown to school kids, it HAS to have the disclaimer that there are a large number of factual errors in it?
I take the fact that Al Gore won an Academy Award AND the Nobel Peace Prize to demonstrate that both institutions are heavily vested in politics and I can deduce what those political leanings are. Why should a man receive the Nobel Peace Prize, for making a movie that is full of "Factual Errors?"
I also wonder how much more Carbon emissions Al Gore is responsible for, than I am? I DON'T fly around to Global Warming meetings in a Gulfstream jet.
He seems to be saying "Don't do as I do, do as I SAY!" Or maybe "Let MY conscience be YOUR guide."
In the spirit of Carbon Credits, send me a small donation, if you plan to eat a lot over Thanksgiving and Christmas. We'll call it "Buying FAT Credits." I'll do something appropriate with the money.

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread very much - thanks to all who have contributed so far.

To me one positive effect of the current global warming is that it has become easier to unearth the mammoths who died in a previous global cooling. And we've all seen (and some of us own) pretty objects made out of their long extinct tusks.... I wish they were endangered, rather than extinct, but nobody can currently change the fact (w/o involving even more controversial stem-cell related subjects), so I'm looking forward to one day owning such a pretty object myself.

I would add to syslight's (very applicable) experiment

Originally Posted by syslight

Of course there is a another "greenhouse gas" that nobody has tried to make money eliminating and that is water vapor.

If you put a lid on the pot, in both cases the water will boil faster than w/o the lid. It is a small, but very observable effect (I still cook my pasta without a lid and my rice with). It is not analogous to CO_2 levels and greenhouse, because the underlying science of both phenomena is different.

Oh yes how can i get on the carbon credit bandwagon... i will gladly plant trees (that you pay for) on my land so you can feel good about yourself and then in my old age I'll have plenty of trees to sell and provide myself with a nice retirement income....

I will gladly help planting those trees in exchange of a honing lesson in the shadow of the existing ones (Did I just shamelessly invite myself over?)

I'll skip my feelings about it and go to the crux of the matter.

Are we doing the right thing about it?

No.

People either think we can stop it by changing lightbulbs or don't believe in it at all.

I think that if we are going to really do something effective about the saving and furtherance of the human race we need to quit spending our time changing lightbulbs and find out how to live in an extremely inhospitable environment. Thus solving the warming "problem" and opening ourselves up to the possiblity of getting off this heating potato and to somewhere different.

+ 1
I would hope that there is some planning in the event the speculated environment changes are drastic and unavoidable. I still think the earth would be our best option as the next cooler place is way too cool (in addition to too far away). But the living conditions may get way more inhospitable than what we're used to. If they change gradually we will most certainly adapt well, but if the change turns to be abrupt I wish somebody has planned for that scenario beyond stocking up duck-tape. And no, I am not saying the government should be the one responsible for saving us from all evil.

I really don't know why there is really any debate or why it is necessary. If you take the tailpipe of a car and funnel the exhaust into your house, how long will you survive? The earth is no different. All those emissions have to go somewhere and you realize how thin our atmosphere really is? The ability of the earth to neutralize this stuff is limited. Eventually it has to have some effect. Remember life is a fragile thing and it doesn't take much to eradicate it. We really don't have a clue as to what series of events could be touched off if things warm up other than the obvious stuff that has been talked about already.

This planet was here long before us and will be here long after we're all gone until its vaporized by the sun. Its not a
matter of the earth Surviving but us.