Thread: The purpose of government

Speaking as someone who actually lives in a partially socialist country:
What the US is going to has nothing to do with socialism.

Apparently Hillary Clinton has ideas that can be considered socialist, as do a few others (guess who I am rooting for ) but that seems like a minor point, except it is not 'the American way'

~3000 died in the 911 attacks, and it changed the soul of a nation.
The US government is playing fast and loose with virtually every part of the constitution, with the excuse of terrorism squashing all opposition.
What worries me is that people don't seem to mind.
Instead everyone seems to think that those 3000 deaths were somehow more special than the 10s of thousands that die each year in traffic accidents caused by bad roads and unsafe conditions, and somehow those 3000 deaths are used to whitewash every violation of the constitution.

In the current presidential race, there is noone who dares go in the opposite direction. Instead, politicians talk about patriotism, but noone seems to ask 'Well if you are so patriotic, then why don't you live by the constitution? '

2 years ago, Turkey wanted my government to extradite a woman who was accused of being a terrorist, but there were no legal grounds to do so. So they left her under normal allowed surveillance, and she went into hiding. (And our government really doesn't want to know where she went). The minister of Justice explained that our constitution and our laws did not let us do more.
At that moment I was proud, because imo a constitution is as close to holy as the law of men can be.

Trust me. Socialism is NOT going to be the major problem you think it is. It is being used as a distraction in order to move your attention away from the real pain points.

EDIT: to prevent some misconceptions: I generally Like Americans, and I like America (or I wouldn't have married over there) but the American government and foreign policies really annoy me.

My thoughts are somewhat similar to Bruno's (but then you expect me to be like that living in a "socialist" country don't you?) But a little less strongly about it.

My bothers with the american government are simply that they seem to live on extremes. I know that socialism is deemed the extreme evil (actually it's communism but lately less and less americans seem to understand the difference between those two.) but I'm someone that doesn't agree with extremes in ANY form of government.

Extreme socialism is wrong, extreme Communism is wrong...and (GASP ) so is extreme capitalism.

I think any government that takes care of it's citizens must have a little bit of socialism. I think even a little bit of (NOOOOOOOOOOO, don't say it!!!) communism should be ok. And offcourse I don't mind some capitalism in the mix either.

It's when people start claiming that either one is "THE ONE" (I know Kung Fu) that I start getting shivers and want to run the other way. It's the reason that it's so difficult for people to discuss politics....because politics seem to have crossed over into the realm of religion where anyone who has a different opinion than you will go to hell.

So I say....bring it on....a little moderation never harmed anyone and will never harm the US either.

As for the constitutioin of the states. I believe that it's an inspired document. That being said though I also believe that it's being trod on hand and foot at the moment.

From what I understand about the Patriot Act for instance I think it's a big and a (but I might be misunderstanding it)

Anyway. I'm not saying that my country is better....I don't think it is. We've got plenty of problems here, just different ones.

The purpose of government is to increase its own marketshare, evidently.

Originally Posted by jockeys

The purpose of government is to increase its own marketshare, evidently.

Tell that to the Swiss.

Originally Posted by jockeys

The purpose of government is to increase its own marketshare, evidently.

I don't think it is the purpose of government, but it is the result of government unless it is bound by the restraints of the Constitution and those restraints are constantly monitored and respected.
The spirit of America has always been freedom from government interference into your personal lives except where it must interfere to protect the rights of others.
The rationale behind Socialism (which is expressed in America as the Democrat Party) is that Government provides rights and that government can ensure equality of outcome. This is a very dangerous idea. The Founders clearly believed that the rights of the individual were paramount and were a natural expectation that could not legally be infringed upon by the government without a it being a crime against the citizenry. Obviously, we have drifted far away from that core belief.
On the other hand, the Republicans believe that our Constitutional rights extend not only to our own citizens but to all people of the world. This is true only insomuch as all people naturally HAVE these rights and that it is a crime when their governments do not recognize their rights as they should. Sorry, but this DOES NOT justify our entangling alliances and interferences around the globe. We should be a shining city on the hill - an example to all and a beacon of hope in a dark unjust world. Not a shining city on a hill with a huge army that is actively running down said hill to conquer all bad guys in the name of justice and liberation. We have a history of remaining neutral in world affairs. Abandoning that principle has cost plenty in blood and treasure - not to mention good will.

Originally Posted by DEwey

The rationale behind Socialism (which is expressed in America as the Democrat Party) is that Government provides rights and that government can ensure equality of outcome. This is a very dangerous idea.

Both parties are guilty of that. Don't listen to what they say; look at what they do. A case in point is "No Child Left Behind."
When politicians say they're for small government, what they mean is "You can pollute all you want, but we're still going to wiretap your phone."

Norm

Originally Posted by norman931

Both parties are guilty of that. Don't listen to what they say; look at what they do. A case in point is "No Child Left Behind."
When politicians say they're for small government, what they mean is "You can pollute all you want, but we're still going to wiretap your phone."

Norm

Hi Norm,
I think if you read the entire post, you'll see that I truly believe BOTH parties have failed to stick to their properly constrained roles. They cite different reasons for doing it - but both are very guilty.

Another point of the Repubs is using government money and favors to benefit certain businesses, while they say that they are keeping govenment unintrusive. It's not unintrusive to favor some companies over others with tax incentives and outright cash. There is a frightening trend for local municipalities to enthusiastically engage in this kind of behavior. Example: The Dallas Cowboys stadium in Arlington where I live. Tax money going to a billionaire.
The real question is: Is my labor (and its compensation) my own or does the state have unlimited access to take it as its own to do with as they please? If its not my own - I must actually be a slave of the state.
How could you argue otherwise? It's not as if you have a choice in the matter (except to vote for those who recognize your personal liberty and who will curtail the creeping hand of government into everything we do).

Originally Posted by DEwey

Hi Norm,
I think if you read the entire post, you'll see that I truly believe BOTH parties have failed to stick to their properly constrained roles. They cite different reasons for doing it - but both are very guilty.

Another point of the Repubs is using government money and favors to benefit certain businesses, while they say that they are keeping govenment unintrusive. It's not unintrusive to favor some companies over others with tax incentives and outright cash. There is a frightening trend for local municipalities to enthusiastically engage in this kind of behavior. Example: The Dallas Cowboys stadium in Arlington where I live. Tax money going to a billionaire.
The real question is: Is my labor (and its compensation) my own or does the state have unlimited access to take it as its own to do with as they please? If its not my own - I must actually be a slave of the state.
How could you argue otherwise? It's not as if you have a choice in the matter (except to vote for those who recognize your personal liberty and who will curtail the creeping hand of government into everything we do).

Well said I am in complete agreement!

Originally Posted by DEwey

The real question is: Is my labor (and its compensation) my own or does the state have unlimited access to take it as its own to do with as they please? If its not my own - I must actually be a slave of the state.

Only if you lived in a state with closed borders which forbad you from emigrating, then yes, the state truly owns you and you have no choice but to toil for it.

I take your general point. But how about looking at it another way? The state works for you, not the other way around. By voting the way you see fit, and by being free to chose whether you stick around or not (or go somewhere that fits your life philosophy better), you authorise the state to act in the interest of the state members.

So yes, I pay a lot of tax. More than my American brothers. But then, I get free healthcare, as do any of my friends and family who range from being hard up to comfortably well off. My garbage is recycled and cleared weekly. My streets and roads are maintained. My kids go to a decent state school. And the little punk down the road who has been smashing car windows gets his ass arrested and hauled into court. Man, I'm actually happy to let the state take MORE of my hard-earned cash to take on the big issues in life.

Call me naive, but I believe the purpose of government is to take care of us. And when they start abusing that trust, well... long live the revolution, bro.

You know, I've always fancied living in Australia.

Originally Posted by DEwey

Another point of the Repubs is using government money and favors to benefit certain businesses, while they say that they are keeping govenment unintrusive. It's not unintrusive to favor some companies over others with tax incentives and outright cash. There is a frightening trend for local municipalities to enthusiastically engage in this kind of behavior. Example: The Dallas Cowboys stadium in Arlington where I live. Tax money going to a billionaire. ).

Good point.

Norm