Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

Originally Posted by valhson

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Maybe we are confusing each other here. We also have two flags that fly on each Naval Vessel. The Ensign (American flag for U.S.A.) flies from the fantail, transom, or stern of each ship. The Jack (now changed to the first naval jack, i.e. rattle snake version) flies at the bow of the vessel. Should there not be proper placing at the bow i.e. Carriers; the Jack is flown from the mast on the bridge. Only flag that goes above the jack is a commission pendent (or Fleet Command) should there be one.

http://www.flags.net/UNST.htm#UNST0008

I do realize what you are saying where the Brits have the naval ensign, civil ensign, and Union Jack (though used as the Countries flag. The separation of Ensigns came about as identification needs of the time. One was not sure with some converted sloops of war, if it was a Naval Vessel or a Merchant ship. If you also notice, many of the former colonies under military rule use a variation of the Government/Naval Reserve ensign with a crest, and colonies that were not military rule but under the Commonwealth used the civil/merchant ensign. Take NZ or Aus., as examples of the former and the islands of the Caribbean for the latter.

No, that's correct...where the Brits would fly the Naval or Merchant ensign from the stern, the US would fly the Stars and Stripes, regardless, e.g. in paintings of naval battles or of merchant ships. I believe the Brits still use the ensigns as such. I believe the Russians have re-adopted the naval ensigns established by Peter the Great.

Originally Posted by valhson

I have to disagree with only one point. The US Navy has a Jack also. It flys at the bow of the vessel and is the field of Blue with the Stars of the state. Honestly it is just the star part of the flag minus the stripes. Point of flying which, I do not know...

Edit: Little change in what I said... the field of blue is the American Union Jack. The rattle snake with the "Don't thread on me" with the stripes was the first Navy jack which in 2003 under the Sec of Navy order, all US ships are to fly for the duration of the War on Terror.

I meant Union Jack as the national flag, not in the sense of a jack flag (lower case).

JACK A flag, originally much smaller than the ensign, flown from a staff at the bow of a ship, usually when that ship is berthed, at anchor or moored to a buoy, occasionally when underway but always when dressed overall, and which in current usage may fall into one of the three main categories listed below:

Civil Jack Flown at the bow of a merchant ship

Government Service Jack Generally, but not exclusively, limited to the UK and former British colonies, and flown at the bow by those civilian-manned Government vessels.

Naval Jack Flown at the bow of a warship, often the appropriate national flag (or a variation of it), occasionally the same as the naval ensign, or sometimes a completely different design.

ENSIGN A flag used at sea to denote nationality - or the national flag for use at sea - and whose usage falls into one of the several categories listed separately below. The ensign is generally displayed on a staff at the stern of a vessel, or from the peak of the gaff of a sailing vessel if so rigged.

Civil Ensign A flag flown by civilian owned vessels and craft to denote nationality – a merchant ensign or merchant flag.

Government (or State) Ensign A flag flown to denote nationality by those government vessels that are not warships, sometimes defaced by badges to denote various departments.

Naval Ensign A flag flown by the naval vessels of a particular country to denote nationality - the ensign.

Where other countries have ensigns, the US uses the Stars and Stripes, except the Coast Guard and Customs ensigns.Hey, we came full circle...and I think we have hijacked this thread farther off topic than any other thread I can recall.