Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

Originally Posted by Nickelking

Exactly!

The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.


Edited to add: I'm wondering if I should comment on the Iran statements. I want to, but I hate getting involved in heavy political debates, especially with people I respect as much as I do Mike, that said I've gotta share my views.

There are several misstatements and quarter truths being said about Iran behind the current fervor for going after them. Looking at what we've done with them from the early 50's and beyond as well as our relationship with Pakistan in the mean time. I can't bring myself to support any attack against them (as things stand now.)

We keep being told that Iran = pre-war Iraq and seem to have forgotten that their religions are fundamentally opposed to each others existence as well as the fact that they've never been able to agree on anything. (sorry, that was hyperbole, I'll stop now.)

I'm not condoning our past, or encouraging a new war, I'm just saying that a nation's political and economic status directs it's actions, and a fundamentalist state (Iran) that by it's very nature hates anyone who is different than them, and has sworn to wipe all nonbelievers off the face of the earth is going to get itself in hot water. especially when many of those nonbelievers are from the great state of Texas...
Iran and Iraq are very different in their politics, but not so much in their fundamental beliefs.

I get worked up over this issue because I am an american. 7+ generations military service in my family, we have fought for this union since before it's inception. and it was founded on principals of freedom and equality. That piece of cloth is more than a symbol, those stripes were painted in my family's blood, and the blood of countless other families. If Islam were to get it's way, we would all convert or die.

England is slowly converting to islam, I dare any Brit over there to display an effigy of Mohammad in public view...(on your own property )
Even more so, display an effigy of Mohammad in a negative light. I dare you!
here, I'll even provide one for you...


France is becoming the same way... put that picture on a T-shirt, and see how long it takes for them to kill you...

If somebody doesn't put a stop to this you will be hearing calls to prayer 4 times a day in arabic, and Westminster Abby will be converted into a mosc.

Americans may be stubborn overbearing, and "unsophisticated" but we will not go down without a fight.

I don't want any war, but personally if they bomb one of our buildings I think we should level one of their cities. If they use a dirty bomb or weapon of mass destruction on US soil, we know where they are from, we know what countries support them, Iran backs every Islamic terrorist group out there financially, and provides them with weapons and supplies.
If a nuclear weapon dirty bomb etc were to be detonated on US soil, I would whole heartedly support the the use of nuclear weapons against Iran. Without the support of Iran, all of the smaller Islamic states would be more complacant, and might actually support peace.

I'm sick of everything having to be politically correct... The free world has been under attack by islamist extremists since the 70's, but it's wrong to admit it, they are waging a religious war, and we are complacent...
What's it going to take to wake the world up?
are the Brits waiting until after they blow up Tower Bridge or the Eye of London?
Ask a muslum what does the Koran say they should do to infidels? define an infidel... They are taking retarded women and remotely detonating them in Iraq as we speak... doesn't that bother you?
We need to cut the head off the snake, but it's not politically correct, because their leaders are religious heads... We can't attack them, they are hiding in Temples. "You can not enter this is sacred ground... please ignore the stockpile of weapons on your way out..." "He's not a suicide bomber... he's using C-4 to have a religious experience" It would be funny if they weren't bent on kiling us...

Originally Posted by JMS

the metal that Sir Winston Churchill had! I wonder, does his sort of character still exist in England, or for that matter, any where in the world?

Winston Churchill's reputation is much overrated if you read up on him I think it's quite likely you'll come to the same conclusion I did - he was an a**hole, the right man in the right place at the right time, but still an a**hole.

Britain's military strength has never been it's leaders (political or military) it comes from the very worst sections in our society. If it ever really kicks off again and I get conscripted who do I want in the foxhole besides me - some college grad with a degree in media studies or a Chelsea Headhunter who thinks a good night out is getting plastered and starting a punch up.

I think Wellington summed up the best of the British Army:

"They are the scum of the earth . . . I don't know what they do to the enemy but they scare the hell out of me" (In fairness, I should point out that Wellington was a terrible snob.)

So, yes the metal still exists, come over here and wander round Manchester City Center on a Friday night if you don't believe me.

And I apologise to all for my earlier dig about US military history, it was partly tongue in cheek and partly a malicious attempt to prick a few egos - I need to work on my impulse control!

Once again, I'm sorry to all as this is a subject I usually don't broach, and I wish I hadn't here, but I have to address a few of your points Mike.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...If Islam were to get it's way, we would all convert or die...

...Ask a muslum what does the Koran say they should do to infidels? define an infidel...

I'm not sure if it's in the q'aran or not as I can't remember but the Islam religion considers Christianity and Judaism as brother religions (I can't remember the word they use for it offhand,) even to the point of believing that followers of those faiths will go to heaven, not something they grant them. Granted, there are a few extremists that don't agree with that part of the doctrine, but the state of Iran has made no movements from what I've seen that they are controlled by extremists.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...Iran backs every Islamic terrorist group out there financially...

Iran is Shia and almost every terrorist group out there is Sunni (As are those we oppose in Iraq.) The two have been warring for many centuries, I have trouble believing claims that Iran is supporting therm.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...I dare any Brit over there to display an effigy of Mohammad in public view...

If I were to put up a similar effigy of Jesus in my yard here in America I would expect a similar reaction.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...I don't want any war, but personally if they bomb one of our buildings I think we should level one of their cities...

I agree wholeheartedly.


Edited to add this disclosure (as religion has become a topic in this thread:) I am not a Muslim a Jew a Christian a Buddhist or anything else defined by a cookie cutter word. A religion is a personal thing based on what someone personally believes and I am a mixmash of at least 8 different religions resulting in my own personal religion based strictly on what I believe.

Sorry for the double post, but I felt they belonged separate.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Whenever someone says something negative about the US I hear at least ONE american pull out the "We saved your ass in WW2" card. I'm getting a bit sick of that.

The irony here is that it was Churchill that got us to fight the Germans, He got the US population riled up against them. Even before Pearl Harbor he used the fact that he was half American to identify with the public and make them feel that they should be on their side against the Germans. Before that America was generally isolationist, without him we would have probably attacked Japan first, if we got involved with Germany at all. Most likely we would have left Europe to the Europeans. So even if we did "save your ass" it was thanks to Churchill that we did. (Ok Maybe Indiana Jones had a part in it too.

Originally Posted by trewornan

Winston Churchill's reputation is much overrated if you read up on him I think it's quite likely you'll come to the same conclusion I did - he was an a**hole, the right man in the right place at the right time, but still an a**hole.

He rather was wasn't he? But, he was great at working the public. As for his ego and a**holishness, even as a child he claimed he was destined for great things.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

I don't want any war, but personally if they bomb one of our buildings I think we should level one of their cities.

Assuming you can properly identify 'them' of course.
If a terrorist cell blows up some building, that is no excuse for starting a war on a country that was not ivolved, however much they may hate yours.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

If they use a dirty bomb or weapon of mass destruction on US soil, we know where they are from, we know what countries support them, Iran backs every Islamic terrorist group out there financially, and provides them with weapons and supplies.

Chances are it would have been stolen from a Russian silo, so it wouldn't prove anything.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

If a nuclear weapon dirty bomb etc were to be detonated on US soil, I would whole heartedly support the the use of nuclear weapons against Iran. Without the support of Iran, all of the smaller Islamic states would be more complacant, and might actually support peace.

Again, you had better be very sure that it was the Iranian Government ordering the attack, and not an independent cell, or you are just a mass murderer.

The US was also very sure about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, and about the WMD.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Assuming you can properly identify 'them' of course...

There's the rub from what we know of the 19 9/11 hijackers 11 were Saudi Arabian 5 were of unknown nationality 0 were Iraqi 0 were Iranian. Hardly compelling evidence that we could root them out in Iraq

Edited to add that the remaining three were Egyptian, Lebanese and of the United Arab Emirates (one each obviously)

I must say, I'm not going to weigh in on this debate because I don't think I have my own position worked out fully, but I wanted to commend all of you who participated in this thread for keeping it very civil and a rational discussion.

Bravo!

Mark

Originally Posted by Milton Man

I must say, I'm not going to weigh in on this debate because I don't think I have my own position worked out fully, but I wanted to commend all of you who participated in this thread for keeping it very civil and a rational discussion.

Bravo!

Mark

I know I only participated a little, but I agree. These are all people that I respect greatly and I realize that opinions vary from person to person. I don't feel the need to convince someone that I'm right, only to let them know how I feel and why. That's what I really feel rational discussion is all about. I respect every body's opinion and join in Milton's post thanking you for sharing it.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I

I have nearly 3 consecutive combat tours under my belt and would vigorously defend your right to burn any flag you wish. You bring the flag, I'll bring the marshmallows. (Don't forget to bring the Guinness Extra Stout, please.) Likewise you may burn little effigies of me if you wish; those and the flag are both merely symbols.

Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right. At the same time, if I see you flying a national flag over the U.S. flag on U.S. soil, we are going to have a fight. See the difference?

Wonderful to hear from somebody with the creds!! I was going to make the point that if Marines are willing to fight and die to protect the right for someone to protest the Marines, then someone must think its a pretty important right.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Pulling out the second world war card is getting a bit old.

Whenever someone says something negative about the US I hear at least ONE american pull out the "We saved your ass in WW2" card. I'm getting a bit sick of that.

My grandfather was alive then and I'm sure he's happy that the allies came and helped out. I however wasn't alive and neither was my father. And I'm pretty sure most people on this forum weren't either. So if you weren't there...don't brag about it.

We don't blame modern germans for ww2 neither should modern americans take credit for something they weren't alive to do.

As for the winning the war thing. I don't know any numbers on casualties. But even if those on the VC side were larger I wonder "Is it a matter of numbers to win a war?" And I think not. If it was then the russians would never have won in eastern europe in WW2. They simply threw men into the grinder untill the grinder got clogged. They still won though.

Burning the flag.

I don't get insulted when someone burns a flag. I simply think the person doing it is an idiot. And I think someone who get's insulted by an idiot is close to being an idiot as well.

Wow those are pretty strong words LX ---- I wouldn't consider you an idiot for being insulted by a misrepresentation of Mormonism, Christianity, or the crapping on of any of its symbols. I would think that would be fairly normal and just. But to some those would just be symbols of a religion they do not understand.

Justin

P.S. But I would consider someone an idiot to riot over it or use it as an excuse to cause other atrocities ---but to be insulted at a root gut level is natural .