Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Wow those are pretty strong words LX ---- I wouldn't consider you an idiot for being insulted by a misrepresentation of Mormonism, Christianity, or the crapping on of any of its symbols. I would think that would be fairly normal and just. But to some those would just be symbols of a religion they do not understand.

Justin

P.S. But I would consider someone an idiot to riot over it or use it as an excuse to cause other atrocities ---but to be insulted at a root gut level is natural .

I try to think before I react. Hence I'd consider myself dumb if I was insulted by someone who didn't understand what they were insulting.

I've met quite a few people that don't agree with me and have uttered some pretty strong and potentially insulting statements concerning the above mentioned examples.

Most of the time I simply pity them. They don't know what they're talking about or missing out on. Often they don't even understand why it should be insulting.

It's difficult to be insulted by a fool. If you don't take someone seriously then their statements can't be taken seriously either.

Offcourse I don't take myself that seriously either and that might make it a bit easier.

Thought I would throw my change on the table here also and clear some of the smoke eh?

Flag Burning:

Serious issue for some, not that much for others. Simple solution. Make the Flags out of fine merino wool. Looks good, fine material, and wool may smolder but doesn’t burn. Smells like hell when lit and requires some other form of combustible to burn through making the task a little more entertaining for all those watching.

U.S. Military Wins/Defeats:

As a prior serviceman and a few sessions in some hot spots with S.O.F. I have worked with the best and brightest (yes college grads but the UK gents were mostly Ruggers and the like if you wish to keep the thug image) I would have to say let them do the work you sent them for. Honestly, who the hell sends in the Marines to do a police job and expects no deaths? (Honestly, I can’t believe I was bamboozled enough to vote for your a** senator…) Let them work and all will be as you asked.

Terrorist / Countries attacked

My views on Iraq aside… This is a simple solution. Seriously, if we are fighting a clandestine war… Let’s fight a freaking clandestine war. Enough of the media getting involved this closely, enough of the silly large patrols in hot spots… let the Special Operations Community do the task you trained them for! Crap, we paid for it. We don’t have to take out a country to take out a few insurgents... We do however need to take down a country that has an army that will hide in hills and attack and harass for a decade or more… think we should ask the Russians for some tips on this, eh?

Churchill

Huge history fan and Churchill is high on my list. He was indeed an A**hole. And more so than some would like to think. I don’t think it was only right place right time for him at all. If you look at his career linage, most move up will little steps and small falls, but always trending up. Churchill went up, huge fall, huge bounce, huge fall, huge bounce and then down again. I think the man understood what was needed for the time period more than we give him credit for. I also think some of the antics were show, such as the whiskey sodas for breakfast.

I do however believe we now need a Churchill more than ever. More Chamberlains will only keep us in the same cycle getting fuel truck convoys killed for no good reason.

Reminds me of a story about humans. We fit in three different types, Sheep, Sheepherders, and Wolves. No one wants wolves around till they are needed. They do however, right or wrong, have a proper place and function to perform.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Pulling out the second world war card is getting a bit old.

Whenever someone says something negative about the US I hear at least ONE american pull out the "We saved your ass in WW2" card. I'm getting a bit sick of that.

My grandfather was alive then and I'm sure he's happy that the allies came and helped out. I however wasn't alive and neither was my father. And I'm pretty sure most people on this forum weren't either. So if you weren't there...don't brag about it.

We don't blame modern germans for ww2 neither should modern americans take credit for something they weren't alive to do.

As for the winning the war thing. I don't know any numbers on casualties. But even if those on the VC side were larger I wonder "Is it a matter of numbers to win a war?" And I think not. If it was then the russians would never have won in eastern europe in WW2. They simply threw men into the grinder untill the grinder got clogged. They still won though.

Burning the flag.

I don't get insulted when someone burns a flag. I simply think the person doing it is an idiot. And I think someone who get's insulted by an idiot is close to being an idiot as well.

I agree that the "America saved your ass..." argument is a tired one, and I cringe whenever I see it or even sense it implied. I don't think that's what JMS was pulling out here. I think he was questioning the leadership and resolve of the UK in general and did not mention the US in WWII. I think you could substitute Ms. Thatcher for Mr. Churchill and the point would be the same. Just my observation.

Jordan

Originally Posted by valhson

we should ask the Russians for some tips on this, eh?

My immediate reaction was to say: well the Russians didn't do too well in Afghanistan. However knowing something about the history of Afghanistan I think that would be harsh.

We might eventually get some level of control in Iraq but take my word for it Afghanistan is never (never, never, never) going to be controllable. It's a bad mistake to stay there - having cleared out the Taliban we should have pulled out completely and left it for the warlords to fight over. It's what they've been doing for millennia, that's how they like it - even the Russians (and the Taliban, the British Empire (at it's height), etc) couldn't sort the place out and for sure no modern democracy has the will.

Originally Posted by trewornan

My immediate reaction was to say: well the Russians didn't do too well in Afghanistan. However knowing something about the history of Afghanistan I think that would be harsh.

We might eventually get some level of control in Iraq but take my word for it Afghanistan is never (never, never, never) going to be controllable. It's a bad mistake to stay there - having cleared out the Taliban we should have pulled out completely and left it for the warlords to fight over. It's what they've been doing for millennia, that's how they like it - even the Russians (and the Taliban, the British Empire (at it's height), etc) couldn't sort the place out and for sure no modern democracy has the will.

I couldn't agree with you more on this point. It was meant tongue in cheek but now that I re-read it there is no way it sounds the part.

A history, such as that region has, would preclude that fighting them is a waste of time.

Personally (and I know this isn't solicited) I believe the ideal situation is impossible. That situation would be one where we simply move back to the borders and not let anyone in or out until they figured it out amongst themselves. At least at that rate, the fighting is contained and thus public fears would be lessened. Then again maybe not. Either way, not something that could or would ever happen for too numerous reason to discuss here.

Originally Posted by jnich67

I agree that the "America saved your ass..." argument is a tired one, and I cringe whenever I see it or even sense it implied. I don't think that's what JMS was pulling out here. I think he was questioning the leadership and resolve of the UK in general and did not mention the US in WWII. I think you could substitute Ms. Thatcher for Mr. Churchill and the point would be the same. Just my observation.

Jordan

I believe that's exactly what he was saying ------

Justin

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

I try to think before I react. Hence I'd consider myself dumb if I was insulted by someone who didn't understand what they were insulting.

I've met quite a few people that don't agree with me and have uttered some pretty strong and potentially insulting statements concerning the above mentioned examples.

Most of the time I simply pity them. They don't know what they're talking about or missing out on. Often they don't even understand why it should be insulting.

It's difficult to be insulted by a fool. If you don't take someone seriously then their statements can't be taken seriously either.

Offcourse I don't take myself that seriously either and that might make it a bit easier.

There are many ways at looking at this isn't there. "It's just a colorful rag" on one level makes sense to me but at the same time I understand its symbolic value --- why fly it at all if it is just a rag. I don't think a wedding ring is just a gold hoop (ask your wife) but represents a certain history, a certain potential, and a special covenant ----- some would say something holy. So maybe it is just a rag ---- but of course if it is just a rag --- why burn it in the first place? If it has no meaning, what's the use.

Justin

Originally Posted by jnich67

I agree that the "America saved your ass..." argument is a tired one, and I cringe whenever I see it or even sense it implied. I don't think that's what JMS was pulling out here. I think he was questioning the leadership and resolve of the UK in general and did not mention the US in WWII. I think you could substitute Ms. Thatcher for Mr. Churchill and the point would be the same. Just my observation.

Jordan

Thank you Jordan!
When I read LX's comments I couldn't believe it and assumed I didn't make myself clear, but I am glad to see someone besides my good friend Justin understood! It was also related to a question put to me by trewornan about maturity and sophistication!

Originally Posted by JMS

Thank you Jordan!
When I read LX's comments I couldn't believe it and assumed I didn't make myself clear, but I am glad to see someone besides my good friend Justin understood! It was also related to a question put to me by trewornan about maturity and sophistication!

Where did Mark even bring up a "we saved your ass" thing in his post ---- I can't find it. He was just giving credit to Churchill , and the British people as a whole for having backbone --- I see no mention of America in that post. By the way, I hate to think how the world would be without the Brits --- I think the western world owes them a great deal -----and even though we fought a war for Independence, our spiritual link to them is undeniable ----another reason why I hate to see a loss of British identity if that is indeed what is happening. Be as sophisticated as you want, just don't confuse it with apathy and sophisticate yourselves out of a national identity --- the world could always use a little British spirit and resolve.

Justin

And I now introduce Wirebeard for our next post!