Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

How about this

We saved your asses in WWI


Matt

Didn't really mean to ruffle all of the feathers; although I knew that it would. Everyone's got a point and I respect them and their ideas. Might not like it, but I'll respect your opinion. Being here in Sacramento, so close to Berkeley, I hear about what's going on over there all of the time. I always just shake my head and laugh to myself...crazy hippies .

I myself don't like the vast majority of people in Berkeley. I don't subscribe to their ideas or beliefs and usually just wish they'd all go away and let us regular, working folks go on about our business. However, I grant that they should have the respect of others for what they do and what they believe in (whatever that may be ) As an example of such I give you the late, great jazz musician: Miles Davis. One of my all time idols. I have many books and such on the man as well as most of his recordings. However, the man just did not like white people. Product of his childhood and family atmosphere from what I conjecture from all of the reading. Myself being raised in a rural county, mostly white, it does make one feel uncomfortable to find that one of your idols probably wouldn't like you much simply based on the color of your skin. However, I still have a black and white photo of him framed, hanging on my wall. Respect for one's beliefs.

Sorry again for the ruffled feathers.

-Pary

Originally Posted by trewornan

I've never understood the American attitude to this sort of thing, it's very different in the UK.

There are plenty of UK citizens opposed to the war in Iraq but I can't imagine any of them demonstrating against or even criticizing the members of our armed forces who are fighting. It's not a soldier's choice after all, they are merely doing what their country has asked of them. An anti-war campaign which picked on our soldiers would do themselves a great deal of damage in this country.

On the other hand, it would be very unusual for anybody to accuse someone opposed to the war of being un-patriotic, treasonous or so forth - something which seems to happen all the time in the US. It's perfectly possible to believe that a war is not in the best interests of your country and whilst you might be wrong that doesn't make you a traitor.

Respect your armed forces - they don't chose which wars to fight it's the politicians who do that so save your ire for them.

Respect those who oppose any particular war - at least they are prepared to stand up for what they believe in and they are trying to do the right thing (whether misguided or not).

Not all Americans suffer from the "Love it or leave it" mentality....Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin both agreed that it was the duty of the citizenry to criticize the government - constantly. Sadly, many Americans equate blind obedience with patriotism and loyalty. Calling dissenters traitors or unpatriotic is so much easier than engaging in intelligent debate.

The other extreme is common in Berkeley - blaming the tire because it has a nail in it...they rarely actually address the root cause of a problem...they are more interested in show and in "feeling good/superior" as a result of their "activism." I always enjoy letting the air of their balloon by asking them what they have done beyond make noise....why aren't they protesting against the violence of Islamic extremists or the lack of proper medical care for injured veterans whom the deem to be "victims"? Why are they not in front of the White House demanding answers and accountability for the Iraq war? Nearly 4,000 dead and counting...where are the WMDs? Hussein was an evil SOB, but had nothing to do with 9-11 and was one of Bin Laden's biggest enemies. Iraq wasn't a terrorist training ground...but it is now. Relying on Pakistan to help catch Taliban? That's a hoot - the Pakistani Intelligence service were and are the major supporters and handlers of the Taliban leadership. I do not have much confidence in there being a successful resolution in Afghanistan either...the last successful military campaign was under Alexander the Great....

None of these things is the fault of the military - you go where you are ordered. Targeting Marine or Army recruiters is a stunt....they are an easy target and save these "activists" from actually having to do something tangible that might interfere with their lives...they are 9-5 activists and many are "limousine activists" - out protesting against the military while funded with Mommy and Daddy's money. As for recruiters "tricking: students into enlisting, unless you are dumb as a bag of hammers, it should be obvious that if you enlist, you could go to war... (although.....given the level of common sense prevalent nowadays...just look at a "man on the street" interview or read a product warning label.....). Those who want to serve will volunteer, those who do not, won't. How many Berkeley students are in uniform or have been? Not many, I'm sure.

Berkeley will always be on the extreme fringe of any issue and does not reflect the mainstream view of America by any stretch of the imagination...that is why I have always lovingly referred to it as "Berserkly."

Originally Posted by JMS

And I now introduce Wirebeard for our next post!

I jumped the gun by two posts!

Originally Posted by JMS

I jumped the gun by two posts!

Ha!

What a fun thread- why didn't I watch this one closer?

I'm going to weigh in on the flag. To me, the flag of the United States is a symbol, almost a shrine, to everything that the United States is. It is the embodiment of the first settlers, the explorers, the founders, the freedom fighters, and the American way. All the men and women who have fought, died, or lost someone are there in that flag. All the ideals that make us different from everyone else are there.

Which is why I think burning a flag is a stupid way of protesting anything. The flag is not representative of an administration or a small group of people. If you're going to protest, go for it. But your ability to protest is embodied in the very thing you're burning. By burning it in protest, it is symbolizing you burning your rights. To me, it is effectively thumbing your nose at the essence of the USA. If I were to burn a Martian flag right now, you bet it would be because I don't like Mars (I don't want to offend anyone with a real flag). It would symbolize the fact that Mars burning to ash and being no more would make me happy.

In other words, protest all you want, but don't burn the very thing that allows you to protest. Anywhere else and you'd be getting run over by a tank.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Not all Americans suffer from the "Love it or leave it" mentality....Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin both agreed that it was the duty of the citizenry to criticize the government - constantly. Sadly, many Americans equate blind obedience with patriotism and loyalty. Calling dissenters traitors or unpatriotic is so much easier than engaging in intelligent debate.

The other extreme is common in Berkeley - blaming the tire because it has a nail in it...they rarely actually address the root cause of a problem...they are more interested in show and in "feeling good/superior" as a result of their "activism." I always enjoy letting the air of their balloon by asking them what they have done beyond make noise....why aren't they protesting against the violence of Islamic extremists or the lack of proper medical care for injured veterans whom the deem to be "victims"? Why are they not in front of the White House demanding answers and accountability for the Iraq war? Nearly 4,000 dead and counting...where are the WMDs? Hussein was an evil SOB, but had nothing to do with 9-11 and was one of Bin Laden's biggest enemies. Iraq wasn't a terrorist training ground...but it is now. Relying on Pakistan to help catch Taliban? That's a hoot - the Pakistani Intelligence service were and are the major supporters and handlers of the Taliban leadership. I do not have much confidence in there being a successful resolution in Afghanistan either...the last successful military campaign was under Alexander the Great....

None of these things is the fault of the military - you go where you are ordered. Targeting Marine or Army recruiters is a stunt....they are an easy target and save these "activists" from actually having to do something tangible that might interfere with their lives...they are 9-5 activists and many are "limousine activists" - out protesting against the military while funded with Mommy and Daddy's money. As for recruiters "tricking: students into enlisting, unless you are dumb as a bag of hammers, it should be obvious that if you enlist, you could go to war... (although.....given the level of common sense prevalent nowadays...just look at a "man on the street" interview or read a product warning label.....). Those who want to serve will volunteer, those who do not, won't. How many Berkeley students are in uniform or have been? Not many, I'm sure.

Berkeley will always be on the extreme fringe of any issue and does not reflect the mainstream view of America by any stretch of the imagination...that is why I have always lovingly referred to it as "Berserkly."

I would like to see someone have an intelligent conversation with Berkeley type dissenters --- and I don't know too many Americans who have blind obedience --I would say none (personally) --- And this is in the largely patriotic south , expanding generations of people, some with military service, some with family members killed in past wars, --- NO, I don't know any marching in locked step with anything and everything presented by this or any other administration. But I do know plenty who have a gut problem with burning the flag and it has nothing to do with blind obedience.

Justin

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

What a fun thread- why didn't I watch this one closer?

I'm going to weigh in on the flag. To me, the flag of the United States is a symbol, almost a shrine, to everything that the United States is. It is the embodiment of the first settlers, the explorers, the founders, the freedom fighters, and the American way. All the men and women who have fought, died, or lost someone are there in that flag. All the ideals that make us different from everyone else are there.

Which is why I think burning a flag is a stupid way of protesting anything. The flag is not representative of an administration or a small group of people. If you're going to protest, go for it. But your ability to protest is embodied in the very thing you're burning. By burning it in protest, it is symbolizing you burning your rights. To me, it is effectively thumbing your nose at the essence of the USA. If I were to burn a Martian flag right now, you bet it would be because I don't like Mars (I don't want to offend anyone with a real flag). It would symbolize the fact that Mars burning to ash and being no more would make me happy.

In other words, protest all you want, but don't burn the very thing that allows you to protest. Anywhere else and you'd be getting run over by a tank.

I couldn't have said it better myself, and I've been trying!

I have never understood what burning a flag meant, other than "I hate what this represents"...so if you are an American...what is that saying about you?

I'm one of those oddball guys who still salutes/puts his hand over his heart when the flag passes, knows how to fold the flag properly, knows the words to the national anthem, stands as veterans march past, and gets teary eyed whenever I hear of yet another young life being taken in Iraq.....

One of the most stirring sights you can see is the flag blowing gently against the backdrop of the Rockies and the Colorado skies.

It all goes back to how your were raised...respect for the flag is visceral....I don't get the same feelings seeing, for example, the German or Russian flag flying over one of their buildings.

Sadly, Americans now are so poorly educated about our own history and civics.

Pick a random person on the street and ask them to identify the following quote:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity........" (note the British ENglish spelling of "defence" versus the current spelling "defense").

If 7 out of 10 got it right....then you did it in front of the National Archives at lunch break...no fair!

Originally Posted by WireBeard

I have never understood what burning a flag meant, other than "I hate what this represents"...so if you are an American...what is that saying about you?

I'm one of those oddball guys who still salutes/puts his hand over his heart when the flag passes, knows how to fold the flag properly, knows the words to the national anthem, stands as veterans march past, and gets teary eyed whenever I hear of yet another young life being taken in Iraq.....

One of the most stirring sights you can see is the flag blowing gently against the backdrop of the Rockies and the Colorado skies.

It all goes back to how your were raised...respect for the flag is visceral....I don't get the same feelings seeing, for example, the German or Russian flag flying over one of their buildings.

Sadly, Americans now are so poorly educated about our own history and civics.

Pick a random person on the street and ask them to identify the following quote:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity........" (note the British ENglish spelling of "defence" versus the current spelling "defense").

If 7 out of 10 got it right....then you did it in front of the National Archives at lunch break...no fair!

You are far too cynical for me!