Thread: Obama camp furious!

You don't feel that higher taxes are oppressive? That putting the government in control of your access to health care is oppressive? That having to count on the Government to be in charge of the bulk of your retirement savings is oppressive?

It depends on what those taxes are used to purchase. If they are used to purchase a cleaner environment, better, cheaper education and greater access to it, safer streets, more stable and better paying jobs, I would consider it money well spent. If they were used to transfer money from the poor and middle classes to the wealth class, then they would certainly be oppressive.

When Bush first took office in 2001, and that year we got our rebate checks, which was a paltry $300, I said to my wife that I would gladly have let the government keep that money and would even pay twice that amount if it meant that I, and everybody else, could walk into a doctor's office, a hospital or a dentist and get a physical or treatment for an illness or disease or teeth cleaning or cavity filling without having to scratch together the cash to pay for it out of my own pocket. And the amount of money that was doled out in that refund was more than enough to pay medical coverage for every man, woman and child in this country twice over for the next 5 years. Having government in control of my access to healthcare isn't oppressive if it means I and 40 million other people who lack insurance can actually have access to healthcare without consigning themselves to a lifetime of indebtedness and poverty.

And Social Security Insurance is not retirement savings, it is retirement insurance. There's a difference. A 401k is retirement savings. SSI is meant to prevent the elderly who have had the misfortune to not be able to save for their retirement, or who have lost their savings, from dying in the streets, bereft of dignity. What would be oppressive would be abolishing that system, or privatizing its assets and funneling them into the coffers of the richest 5%.

When the government begins making demands upon my money and through it my self which I can neither contest nor with hold it does become a THEM in all caps.

But it is perfectly ok for you to make demands upon all the rest of us in order to continue to make that money, but seemingly illegitimate for us to contest your demand. I sense a double standard. But perhaps you are not aware of how much you absolutely depend upon the cooperation and sacrifice of countless others you will never meet in order to live the life you want to live. It is not illegitimate for the rest of us to demand some cooperation and sacrifice from you so that others may have that same privilege as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kantian Pragmatist View Post
T

Finally, your ludicrous assertion that the only way to end wars is through genocide shows that you have no clue about war or history. Stop listening to right wing talk radio and Faux News and open a freaking book. Maybe you shouldn't be talking about things about which you have no clue, and instead go and learn about these things for yourself. Getting talking points from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or John Gibson is not thinking, it is regurgitating, as in vomit.

Did Mike say that? Maybe I missed something.

I humbly submit:

The only absolute way to stop one people from hating or fighting with another is genocide...

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

I don't care if he voted against the war, that doesn't stop it...
The only absolute way to stop one people from hating or fighting with another is genocide... is that his great plan?

.

I think the above quote is the complete quote. As in asking if Obama thinks genocide is the only way to handle such problems. I believe this is what Mike was(is) saying.


Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I think the above quote is the complete quote. As in asking if Obama thinks genocide is the only way to handle such problems. I believe this is what Mike was(is) saying.


Justin

I understand that is his question, but it is a disingenuous one, rather like asking if you've stopped beating your wife yet. The problem is that Mike claims that genocide is the only way to get people to stop hating and fighting one another, not Obama. History has shown that idea to be laughably false, because no war has ended in genocide, though they often begin with the attempt. In fact, there has never been a successful genocide in the history of the world. It's damn hard to eradicate whole races of people. They have a tendency to run away and hide out for a couple of centuries, and then come back with a vengeance, if not fight to a stalemate. Conflicts between tribes, races and nations have only ever been resolved in one way, inclusive and sustained diplomacy.

Finally, your ludicrous assertion that the only way to end wars is through genocide shows that you have no clue about war or history. Stop listening to right wing talk radio and Faux News and open a freaking book. Maybe you shouldn't be talking about things about which you have no clue, and instead go and learn about these things for yourself. Getting talking points from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or John Gibson is not thinking, it is regurgitating, as in vomit.

That is not what I said.
I said

The only absolute way to stop one people from hating or fighting with another is genocide... is that his great plan?

this means you can't force a people to change their minds. once they are determined to hate us, and wage war against us.


What I'm talking about is an established fact. I do read, the author's name was Niccolo Machiavelli. He instead of encouraging genocide took a longer term approach, and encouraged establishment of a ruling class, and having the conquering army breed the conquered people into extinction.
Unfortunately this option would require a multigenerational presence in the conquered country.

as for me regurgitating the thoughts of others, I don't listen to any of the people you mentioned above, I don't like talk radio. These are my thoughts, not anybody elses. These opinions are the result of growing up in a multigenerational patriotic family that has given more for this country than you can ever imagine. My family has fought and died for this country. We have fought in every war all the way back to the revolutionary war. I am the first male in my family that hasn't served, and that wasn't by choice. I'm allergic to penicillin, so they rejected me.
My family was almost wiped out in the civil war, and again in WWI and WWII. My father is the last of his line, and he served in Vietnam... He volunteered.
They didn't volunteer for the sake of politicians, or partisan BS. They volunteered for military service because they supported the ideals that this nation was founded on. They volunteered so people like you can live, love, hate, and die in what ever manner you wish to. And although I strongly disagree with you, I would fight for your right to say what you want.


You argue that crime and gun control are disconnected, and that poverty is the cause...
I don't live in a high poverty area. or a highly populated area. I live in a city in the central valley, a city with a population of 30,000 surrounded by rural farmland.
The impoverished areas a short way to the south of me have a greatly reduced crime rate...
How do you explain that?
I can explain it very easily... if you break into a house there you're likely to get shot.

As for California being a bastion of liberalness, while it's true that its greatest population centers are unabashedly liberal, everywhere else it is moderately to strongly conservative. To the extent that Republicans have obstructed any real progress in the State legislature and the state has even elected a Republican governor. The most liberal state in the country is alternatively Massachusetts or Vermont, and both of those states have lower than average crime and poverty rates, and higher than average literacy rates and other positive indicators.

You claim that republicans have obstructed progress... The republicans have such a smal presence here, and limited political power, they don't have the clout to obstruct anything. Arnold got elected on star power alone, and the changes he has made are too liberal for most republicans here... Years of Democrat control and liberal idealogy have given us more poverty, more jobs moving out of state, more crime, and more over crowded prisons.
The government of California is bending it's will to every liberal interest group who is willing to protest. If you don't want them to cut down a tree, you just have to find some idiot to sit in the tree long enough. I can't park my car in front of my house for more than a day or two, because some idiot doesn't like the looks of my 2006 Toyota, and complains to the city and they have the balls to glue a sticker to the window ordering it's removal. Mind you this in a $30,000 convertable in pristine condition. It's legally parked, and I drive it daily. yet I have to move it?
liberal politics are self serving, and ignore common sense. Why should minority groups have more rights and priveledges than everybody else?
Affirmative action is just a nice name for racism. Why should we differentiate between 2 kids who both have good grades and both want to go to college but can't afford to?

There is a case going on just north of SanFrancisco right now that the ACLU and NAACP have made a big stink about.
3 men broke into a home with baseball bats and beat the occupents severely. one of the occupants is permanently brain damaged from it. The occupant's father shot and killed 2 of the assailants who were beating his 18 year old son to death. The 3rd assailant is being tried for murder.
California law says if anyone dies in the commision of a violent crime all of the perpetrators of that crime can be chasrged with the death.
Now that you have the basic facts, lets see if you can guess who attacked who?
It's obviously a race issue if the NAACP has gotten involved...

.


.


.



.


You ready for it?
The assailants were african american, the occupants were caucasian.
The NAACP thinks it's racism because the black kid is being tried for murder.
Nobody cares about the 18 year old who was beaten into a coma, and has severe permanent brain damage from it.

but this is even better, what would have happened if the roles were reversed, and it was white kids who broke into the home of a black family at night, and beat them severely with bats... can you say race riots?

liberal politics can't change the fact that there is racism, or the anomosity between whites and blacks... they can't erase the past, or prevent it from being used as a justification for actions in the present.
100 years from now we will still be considered invaders and infidels in the middle east.
What's the point of all this? you might ask...


You can't force a people to change their minds. Once they are determined to hate.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

It's far to interesting to debate this topic in a forum with so many guys who are at least my intellectual equals and also much more well informed than the average Joe off the street. As well as being able to gain a world perspective from some of the more far flung members here. This is the perfect place for this type of discussion as this is the most mature and intellectual crowd I am likely to meet at any time.

Yo, main...why you gotta bring Joe into it?

Mark --- I thought this thread was long dead ---- it's got new legs don't it.


Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Mark --- I thought this thread was long dead ---- it's got new legs don't it.


Justin

All thanks to KP! Welcome aboard KP!


Good post Mike!!

Originally Posted by Kantian Pragmatist

I understand that is his question, but it is a disingenuous one, rather like asking if you've stopped beating your wife yet. The problem is that Mike claims that genocide is the only way to get people to stop hating and fighting one another, not Obama. History has shown that idea to be laughably false, because no war has ended in genocide, though they often begin with the attempt. In fact, there has never been a successful genocide in the history of the world. It's damn hard to eradicate whole races of people. They have a tendency to run away and hide out for a couple of centuries, and then come back with a vengeance, if not fight to a stalemate. Conflicts between tribes, races and nations have only ever been resolved in one way, inclusive and sustained diplomacy.

Actually I said it is the only absolute way.
and yes you are correct, the attempt to commit genocide has always failed, and resulted in greater animosity.
and what I said had absolutely nothing to do with resolving conflict either.
What I was refering to was stopping people from hating each other and fighting amongst each other.

Conflicts between tribes, races and nations have only ever been resolved in one way, inclusive and sustained diplomacy.

This is a point I've tried to make to many a democrat when they suggested we drop everything and leave Iraq. So I'm glad we can agree on something. If we leave Iraq in a state of chaos, and civil war, we will never again get the chance to have a sustained humanitarian diplomatic effort.


My question is not a disingenuous one... Obama has stated that he would not have gone into Iraq. He has stated that he will bring about a resolution to the Iraq war. He has also said he will bring our trpoops home. I want to know how he thinks he can accomplish this resolution, and end this war without setting the seeds for another war in 10 -15 years.
This is a rudamentary lesson we learned at the end of WW1 if you leave a people in an impoverished state, they will rebuild, and the animosity left from the previous war will set the grounds for further conflict.

Look at how long we stayed in Germany after WW2, we had to in order to build relations with the German people and prevent another war.



By the way have you stopped beating your wife yet??? You really need to cut that out.
see now that was a disingenuous question.

Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Yo, main...why you gotta bring Joe into it?

Well he said "average" Joe ---- not "excellent razor maker" Joe (now send me a razor for being so nice)

Justin