Thread: Senator Obama's Memorial day speech!

Originally Posted by Bruno

Hi LX, my point was not to condemn christianity. It - like any religion- acts as an amplifier for human traits.
I do not deny that christianity has done a lot of good too. just like islam and buddhism and others.

My point was targeted to whiggamore to illustate that you cannot say that Christanity has such a noble past, and thus it should be an example for us, based on its past.
It also has a very ignoble past, and as far as I am concerned they cancel each other out for the purpose of upholding an example.

I'm with Bruno on this! The problem comes in when you confuse the people and their shortcomings with the actual teachings and principals that should guide us all!

Originally Posted by JMS

I'm with Bruno on this! The problem comes in when you confuse the people and their shortcomings with the actual teachings and principals that should guide us all!

Big part of my point as well.

There are great people and evil people who follow every dogma, be it religious, political, whatever. To decide whether or not the dogma is good or bad is much easier, all you have to do is look at its written rules. For Christianity this is the New Testament, for Islam the Koran. Both have a lot of good life lessons in there but when they actually get around to instructing their followers about how to behave and treat people, they differ widely. Read each and decide which you would rather your neighbor believes is the holy truth.

But that's a pretty weak argument - if the interpretation of whatever scriptures can be anything and it depends on the person doing the interpretation, it is irrelevant what religion my neighbor chooses. In which case I'd rather him not subscribe to any organized religion at all, as a lot of organized religion followers (in US included) take the preaching from the pulpit as a direct instruction from God him/her/it-self.

stick to talking cut throats ( razors that is ) it is more interesting than politics.

great stuff guys - love it all.

cheers

Bruno, you can say that Christendom has a noble past and you can say that Christendom should be an example for all the world. At its heart is the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Linking to questionable scholarship on the internet about the Crusades, Inquisition, and other holy conflicts of Christendom does not constitute an argument otherwise. This subject spans continents, cultures, and centuries and warrants more than such a simple analysis. I will gladly discuss this further in a more appropriate place.

Wildtim, you would want to win the hearts and minds of these people because they are people! The Catholic Church has not been at war with these people for a thousand years because of this. My Pope is vehemently opposed to your war in Iraq. Understand that! They are men, made in the image of God; they are our equals. The foreign and domestic policies of the United States do not reflect that, at all. Instead you wage proxy, economic, and real war against nations which pose no threat to your territorial integrity nor the safety of your citizens. They are not at your beaches or borders and are saints compared to your genocidal highways. Yes, your highways. Why not bomb them instead? Or your hospitals? Their 200,000 preventable deaths each year put terrorists to shame.

I spent a year and a half of my short life in the developing world, in Belize. What I saw there did not endear me to Americans. Or even my own people. But, I will fight them here and you, you can fight there.

America could usher in a golden age, the Pax Americana, for which it would remembered forevermore. Instead you are sending the West towards economic disaster, ensuring conservative movements in allied nations will be kept from the halls of power, and drawing this unfortunate conflict on even longer. Muslim aggression is not inherited from the Arab conquests; is it political and it is reactionary. They will continue to react.

Hoglahoo, if my neighbour offered me a gift with such strings attached, I would refuse it. Wouldn't you? And if he ever reminded me of it I'd throw it in his face so hard he'd cry.

Originally Posted by Whiggamore

Bruno, you can say that Christendom has a noble past and you can say that Christendom should be an example for all the world. At its heart is the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Linking to questionable scholarship on the internet about the Crusades, Inquisition, and other holy conflicts of Christendom does not constitute an argument otherwise. This subject spans continents, cultures, and centuries and warrants more than such a simple analysis. I will gladly discuss this further in a more appropriate place.

Christianity has inspired both good deeds and evil deeds. You can't say that the church is 'good' because of the good things it did. I could just as easily say that the church is evil for the things it did.
We can always pick the examples to support our argument, but the truth is that Christianity is not good or bad. It just is.

Originally Posted by Whiggamore

Hoglahoo, if my neighbour offered me a gift with such strings attached, I would refuse it. Wouldn't you? And if he ever reminded me of it I'd throw it in his face so hard he'd cry.

What such strings? I was simply replying to the broad statement that "We North Americans have no business being on the other side of either the Atlantic or the Pacific, except in peaceful trade." The only strings attached to our gifts anyway are just more gifts