Thread: Split from Palin for VP: Creationism in schools

Many good points here.

I think that all world religions - and their various theories - should be taught in the schools. The problem in the US is that most people who want Creationism taught in school only want that to apply to the Judeo-Islamo-Christian version, thus relegating the views of Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American religions, and many others to the sidelines. Or what about the study of the ancient cultures and their religions? I can see Suzy Suburb's face now when Junior comes home with home work about how the Egyptians' god Atum created the other gods by masturbating (resulting in specifically Shu and Tefnut) and in some versions created humnity in the same way.

If you are going to teach Creationism, then you should teach all the variations, or none.

Earlier in the thread, there was a disclaimerabout evolution...I think it should have included creationism as well.

My problem with the strict adherents of the 6-day creation is that they seem to be trying to manifest the essence of God within the capabilites of mankind. It seems all very "special effects"...and IMHO a bit arrogant. Moses was trying to convey something that even now we can barely comprehend, to an ancient people in terms they could understand. If you insist on taking the Bible literally, then what is a "day" to God? (I have also noticed that many "literalists" take what they want from the scriptures and disregard the rest....otherwise, we have people being stoned for mixing fibers, punished for eating pork chops...and the members of SRP would be in for some serious punishment, as we shave out beards!)

Do people really believe that God and humanity operate within the same parameters?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

There are views now, offered up by physicists, that, in looking back in time and that because the expansion of space also causes time expansion (space-time mechanics here) and space has expanded by many factors, that what appears to be 15 billion years to us can be calculate in the realm of six days from the point where the "Big Bang" started. Using Einstein's Law of Relativity, mondern astro-physics, etc., there are some very good arguments showing compatability between Genisis and Science. Look at www.genesistime.com ...it's an interesting read.

The constant dismissal of science by many creatioists is also offensive. I have always viewed science as a path to achieving a greater understanding of God and the Universe. I was pleased to find that Sir Isaac Newton held the same view. Science is not viewed in this light by the more extremist creationists....thus we have people complaining to schools about their children being show fossils ("Don't you know they were planted by Satan to confuse the faithful?" - yes, I was told this by a fellow teacher, who had heard this from an upset parent) or the "museums" showing man and dinosaurs living at the same time....it's the Flinstones as a documentary!

The sad fact is that most people cannot discuss their religious beliefs objectively or defend them in a debate. When people present arguments as "I am right and you are going to hell", then there can be no discussion. The US has seperation of Church and State for a reason - to prevent the goverment from dictating religion and to prevent religion from dictating how to govern. The religous wars in Europe were not that far in the past. Ironically, the Pilgrims - who came here to escape religious intolerance - were some of the most intolerant people around....and their Puritanism gave birth to the Salem Witch Trials. How much death and destruction has humanity suffered through wars based on religions? Until the rights of others to believe as they choose are respected, there will never meaningful discusssion. Politicians only add to the problem, saying what they feel needs to be said for the sake of votes and to appeal to the more base intincts in humanity.

I have never had a problem reconciling science and faith....I have the mental faculites to grasp science because I have faith that all knowledge is a divine gift. God does not lie, God does not censure...He have humity free will, so that we can choose what to do with knowledge. Only the weak-willed or those with ulterior motives fear knowledge. Those who claim to know "the Truth", have, IMO decieved themsleves, just as those who use religion for power, personal gain, self-agrandizement, or to feel superior to others.

My brother asked me why I don't go to church every Sunday...I replied "going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in the garage makes you a car." If you have to constantly tell people "I'm a good Christian/Jew/Muslim?Buddhist/etc."...then you aren't...it should be evident from your presence.

So, teach without exclusion or do not teach. Science offers up evolution, religions offer up creationism. Teach both...and then hope that the children are disciplined enough to choose for themsleves.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I really don't know why we keep having these discussions re evolution and creationalism or I.D. No one who believes in evolution is going to give creationalism the time of day and no one who agrees in creationalism is going to think evolution is anything but a crackpot theory. No ones mind is going to be changed.

Personally I think we should just all believe what we want and leave it at that. Then when people wonder why kids in the U.S are so far behind in science to other countries well we'll know who to blame. Ourselves.

Thats not totally true, one can believe in both a creator and evolution. In fact a lot of scientist don't discount that fact that there could have been a creator that created evolution.

The problem usually stems from strict creationists.

People also tend to mix religion, spirituality and church, these three are not the same. I for one am a spiritual person and a Christian, but I do not believe in organized religion or the church. I also believe in evolution.

Personally I've yet to meet any Evolution Zealots, I can't say the same for Creationist. The big difference is, if I woke up tomorrow and there was proof that life happened a different way I'd be ok with that. Evolution isn't an important part of my being. Creationist have a vested personal interest in creationism, for it to be proven wrong goes to there very being and shatters deeply held beliefs.

I do appreciate this conversation and debate its been very enlightening from both sides, maybe its the evolution to the cartridge razor that has made others unable to have civil informed discussion with out being nasty to one another. I guess our common interest in finer shaving leads us to be more genteel and urbane.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Not true. I believe that evolution is the best theory we have atm.
Why should that mean that I don't believe in a higher deity? I do.
IBut I believe that said deity was smart enough to construct the laws of physics in such a way that he wouldn't be needed for everything. My God(s) created the fundamental laws, and then let the universe take care of itself.

Seraphim didn't say that evolution ONLY supports atheism. Just that it does. That is true. It in fact directly supports the idea that there is no god. It doesn't support that idea exclusively and therefore his statement is true. That being said, I agree with and appreciate you pointing out the other side. Logic police out...

v/r

-Rob

I'm sure that all you guys agree with me, regardless your spiritual believes


Palin is a star !!!

Very interesting post wirebeard, there were also other reasons for the separation of Church and State as well. We tend to view this from our modern perspective of Church equals religion, when in fact during the time of the founding of the US and before the "Church" was a seat of power just as the Monarchy, at times the "Church" rivaled the power of the Monarchy.

Great thread. Lots of good comments. I'm also impressed by the cordiality of the whole thing.

I do regret the recent politicization of religion. It has some people so paranoid that we can't even discuss it in some places. I remember when I was in high school, we had units on comparative religion that had guests from the religious community come into the classroom -- priests, ministers, rabbis, Jehovah's Witnesses -- just about everything. The real star of the show, as I remember, was the Zen master. Even though I remain a nominal Christian, I still use Zen techniques for self-control. And that was in a public school.

As a writer and an English major, I don't understand how an American child can understand literature and western culture without reading the Bible. As I said, it's a shame things are now so political.

So it goes without saying that I agree with the posters who suggest that creationism can be discussed in schools as long as it's not evangelized -- or presented as science. I think several of the posters outlined the difference between science and creationism quite nicely. Russel Baldridge comes immediately to mind.

This link might be amusing. It's one of my guitar heroes on this very subject.

YouTube - Origin of Species