Thread: Split from Palin for VP: Creationism in schools

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

So it goes without saying that I agree with the posters who suggest that creationism can be discussed in schools as long as it's not evangelized -- or presented as science. I think several of the posters outlined the difference between science and creationism quite nicely. Russel Baldridge comes immediately to mind.

j

Thanks Jim,

I, also, agree that there's no problem with teaching creationism in schools (in a dedicated class that is not a science class), as well as religion in general if there's an honest attempt to keep things neutral. I would have loved to have had a class on "foreign" religions when I was in public school, but instead I had to read about them in my free time (a work in progress, I'm still shamefully uneducated on most of the Islamic principles for example).

Originally Posted by Hutch

Too late for what?

Too late to say hmmmmmm. Too late to change. Too late to tell anyone. Just plain too late

Originally Posted by kevint

What I was really hoping you would come up with are examples of how evolution, start to finish, of plants and bacteria is observed in the laboratory. I've never heard of any evidence to support the creation of new information within the genome of any given organism.

The problem with that is that you can't name a functional gene before it arises . In other words, how do you differentiate between a random gene mutation (which is known to occur) and "new information" added. What if you label the random gene mutation useless, but years down the road it proves to have a positive affect on how one useful gene is expressed, was that new information added?

From the perspective of DNA, all genes have equal potential for being "new information" because they are all just collections of the four nucleotide bases.

I'll try to find a couple specific examples for you (my sister is a geneticist).

Internet glitch, apologies.

Hey russel, what you trying to do? Get your post count up? you want that coveted jabbermouth smiley next to your avatar?

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I hate to tell you this but that presentation is absolutely false, in nearly all of it's claims.

I think "false" is rather harsh when dealing with a hypothesis....and carries the connotation that someone has the truth.

I offered the site up just as an interesting read....I did not find any more validity in it than in the Bible or in a science text book.

On this topic, there is no absolute truth possible...no one can present irrefutable proof. This, and many other such issues, would be moot if:

1. People could comprehend that they do not have the right to shove their beliefs down the throats of others;

2. Education is not just in the schools...it must take place in the homes as well (an inconvenience for those parents who view the schools as tax-funded daycare); Education is not made up only of absolutes, but also of theories and hypotheses, in order to stimulate the mind into seeking further knowledge. What is not taught in the schools (or is deficient) must be taught at home.
Inadvertently, my mother used the Socratic method to teach me, partly out of a desire to have me learn "how to learn" and partly as there were things she did not know. Answering questions with question made me think harder and opened the doors of knowledge to me. I was encouraged to find my own answers and I was never told that my view on a topic that was not an absolute was wrong. (2+2=4...no questions there, but "6 days to make the Earth"...again, what is a day to God?). There was never a condemnation of other religions or cultures, nor was I ever told that only Christians are good people...ethical behavior and religion can exist without the other...and have from the beginning.
This is the difference between learning and being spoon fed information to pass tests. This is the difference between being taught and indoctrinated.

3. People would actually learn about their faith, it's history, its positive, its negative...rather than blindly accepting what they are told or conducting "study groups" of like-minded people where there is no debate; learn about the similarities and not dwell on the differences.

4. Religion should augment life, inspire, guide, nurture, and comfort. It should bring out the best in people, regardless of their specific beliefs; it becomes dangerous when it is used as a crutch for the self-righteous, the power-hungry, or those filled with hate.

5. If you wish to be a defender of your faith, it will take words - not weapons, fists, politicians, or money.


As another author pointed out, hard core creationists have so much invested in "being right" that I really must question whether their efforts are points of faith or attempts to satisfy their vanity or gain attention...or maybe in some way convince themselves and others that they are the sole arbiters of truth.

I can debate my faith and argue its merits and faults; I can see the point of view of others and find value in their arguments. I don't know what makes me different from those who cannot discuss their beliefs without frothing at the mouth. Maybe it is because I was never forced into a religion (Christianity was preferred, but choosing our own path seemed more important than adhering to one specific doctrine) or maybe I view my faith as a private issue and do not feel that God needs to see a fish decal on my bumper or a Bible in my hand every waking moment to accept me.

I have heard people refer to their relationship with God as a "conversation"...I find that too open...I feel it is a dialog...no one else's business, not for show, not to impress, not to make others feel inferior. My faith is my own, and yours stops at my nose.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." -Matthew 6:5-8

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I would have loved to have had a class on "foreign" religions when I was in public school, but instead I had to read about them in my free time

The opportunity to study anything"foreign" in US schools is, I would guess, rare, be it religion, history, geography, etc. It was a challenge to get anything like that when I was in HS...I can only imagine it has gotten worse.

When the Russians returned fire on the Georgian military in South Ossetia and CNN said the Russian were in Georgia...I wonder how many people called friends in Atlanta to see if they were ok?



Now, Cheney was in Tbilisi...did you know there was a song about his visit?
YouTube - The Charlie Daniels Band - The Devil Went Down To Georgia