Thread: Abortion: split from stem cell research

Originally Posted by Hutch

There are also many conditions that aren't relate to the pregnancy that make treatment difficult to impossible if the woman is pregnant such as infections, and cancer. These if left untreated could put the woman's life endanger.

Add acute diabetes and acute asthma.

j

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Exactly!



I'll explain why Jockeys is right.

Take a sperm, or an egg, it is living but it does not "have life so to speak. Now combine the two, something interesting happens, you get a completely unique set of DNA, one that has never been seen before, and it begins to duplicate itself, producing more and more cells, and more and more DNA, until eventually following the instructions coded on that very first piece of DNA we have a complete human body.

The sperm and the egg live but the combination of the two is very completely, uniquely, amazingly alive and it begins to do what it and its replicents will do for the next eighty years or so, build and maintain a human being.

Really well stated. I agree, of course, that the thing that is a combination of egg and sperm is amazing. THat it is the thing that will become human, and even that it is, "alive." I guess the thing I am looking for is does it have "life?" I know they are the same word, but I hope you understan the subtle difference that TO ME, makes all the difference in the world. Though it has some qualities that speak to being a life in and of itself (unique DNA is a great example), it does not yet, to me, seem to have that spark that makes it a HUMAN life. At this very, very, very early stage, it truly is, to me, no more holy and sacred that the "life" of an insect or plant.

I know when we thought we lost something just a very few weeks later, we were crushed. When we found out it was still OK, we were elated, but not for it....for us. A few months later...and everything was about her, and it gets more so every day.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Really well stated. I agree, of course, that the thing that is a combination of egg and sperm is amazing. THat it is the thing that will become human, and even that it is, "alive." I guess the thing I am looking for is does it have "life?" I know they are the same word, but I hope you understan the subtle difference that TO ME, makes all the difference in the world. Though it has some qualities that speak to being a life in and of itself (unique DNA is a great example), it does not yet, to me, seem to have that spark that makes it a HUMAN life. At this very, very, very early stage, it truly is, to me, no more holy and sacred that the "life" of an insect or plant.

I know when we thought we lost something just a very few weeks later, we were crushed. When we found out it was still OK, we were elated, but not for it....for us. A few months later...and everything was about her, and it gets more so every day.

It sounds like you would never in a million years do an aborition (like most pro-choicers), but putting that aside, how would you feel if you did an abortion at month 2 because you somehow decided that the elusive "spark" had not arrived in the fetus, and then decided later that it had? I can see philosophically entertaining the idea that the spark spontaneously beams into the fetus at some random point that fits into the Democratic platform, but how on earth can you take the chance that you might be wrong? Again, I know you wouldn't......like most pro choicers.........which is why this debate so mystifies me......

Thanks for the link for eclampsia.


Given that information, we have:

The prevalence of eclampsia is reported to be 0.56 per 1,000 births

So, it occurs in 0.056% of births. Less than a tenth of a percent. And it was listed as the leading cause of birth related deaths.




How many people kill someone in self defense a year?

It happens, and is a necessity born of the circumstance.

Should murder no longer be illegal because there are cases where someone must kill in self defense?



What I'm getting at here is that, yes there are situations where a choice may have to be made, and there should be protection for doing so (in much the same way that, although murder is illegal, they aren't going to send you up the river in a case of self-defense). But even though such unique circumstances do exist, you don't just throw wide the gates to legalize all taking of life under any circumstance because of that.

It is a weak argument on behalf of pro-abortion.

Originally Posted by loueedacat

It sounds like you would never in a million years do an aborition (like most pro-choicers), but putting that aside, how would you feel if you did an abortion at month 2 because you somehow decided that the elusive "spark" had not arrived in the fetus, and then decided later that it had? I can see philosophically entertaining the idea that the spark spontaneously beams into the fetus at some random point that fits into the Democratic platform, but how on earth can you take the chance that you might be wrong? Again, I know you wouldn't......like most pro choicers.........which is why this debate so mystifies me......

Why do drag political parties into this, it's about individual rights, I would think the Republicans would want to defend individual rights just as much. I'm certain that there are Republicans that have had abortions and support pro-choice, I'm certain there are fundamental christians that have had abortions too. So personally I wouldn't try to pass this as a partisan issue.

Rights have responsibilities, should one make that choice they have to live with the decision that they made and all that it entails.

I really don't agree with this notion that people have abortions without any thought on a whim, and it's just some big fun process. I guess I have more faith in my fellow humans to make decisions that are right for them, and they don't need my meddling in their personal business, which in the end has no effect on me one way or another.

On a similar note, capital punishment, many of the same anti-abortion supporters, support capital punishment, the same question could be asked after they put some one to death, What if they were wrong?

Originally Posted by Hutch

Why do drag political parties into this, it's about individual rights, I would think the Republicans would want to defend individual rights just as much. I'm certain that there are Republicans that have had abortions and support pro-choice, I'm certain there are fundamental christians that have had abortions too. So personally I wouldn't try to pass this as a partisan issue.

Rights have responsibilities, should one make that choice they have to live with the decision that they made and all that it entails.

I really don't agree with this notion that people have abortions without any thought on a whim, and it's just some big fun process. I guess I have more faith in my fellow humans to make decisions that are right for them, and they don't need my meddling in their personal business, which in the end has no effect on me one way or another.

On a similar note, capital punishment, many of the same anti-abortion supporters, support capital punishment, the same question could be asked after they put some one to death, What if they were wrong?

I agree with not bringing party politics into this. I like hearing the individual ideas from the posters here.

Not that I'm necessarily in favor of it, but people put to death via capital punishment have at least had their say at a trial.

Capital punishment would deserve another split unto itself!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

It is a weak argument on behalf of pro-abortion.

I've yet to see anyone here that is "pro-abortion". Pro-abortion is far different than pro-choice.

Pro-abortion would be someone going around telling women to have abortions, which I have never seen.

Originally Posted by Hutch

I've yet to see anyone here that is "pro-abortion". Pro-abortion is far different than pro-choice.

Pro-abortion would be someone going around telling women to have abortions, which I have never seen.

Pro-choice seems to me to be a euphemism at best.

Pro-choice, but what is the choice being made?

Pro-choice-to-have-an-abortion-if-you-want-one was too long to fit on the bumper sticker I guess...

Originally Posted by Hutch

I've yet to see anyone here that is "pro-abortion". Pro-abortion is far different than pro-choice.

Pro-abortion would be someone going around telling women to have abortions, which I have never seen.

Take a look at the Planned Parenthood website. It has a particular slant....

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Pro-choice seems to me to be a euphemism at best.

Pro-choice, but what is the choice being made?

Pro-choice-to-have-an-abortion-if-you-want-one was too long to fit on the bumper sticker I guess...

It seems quite simply to me

1. Choose to have a baby.
2. Choose to put a baby up for adoption.
3. Choose to have an abortion.

It's only a euphemism when one doesn't believe in a choice. I think I've more than made it clear that I believe in an individuals right to choose.

I don't make it a habit of approaching pregnant women and asking them why don't they have an abortion, which would be pro-abortion, just as pro-lifer accost scared young women trying to do what they think is right for them, bombing clinics and assassinating doctor that are providing a legal service. If you want to talk about groups with a slant maybe address those ones.

Personally I commend a scared single young woman who choose to go through with her pregnancy understand everything that it entails (not some ignorant dork who thinks it going to be all fun), by the same token I don't condemn the young women who choose to terminate her pregnancy either. They are both tough decision that require courage.