Thread: Abortion: split from stem cell research

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Do I have your permission to frame that and hang it in my living room?

thanks in advance for your right response

I already have one of those - want a copy?

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

It's tough to find someone who is pro-life, pro-gun, pro-environment, and believes in social welfare programs where enough is spent on the prgram being RUN RIGHT so that the money spent is being spent efficiently. Someone who believes that TRUE fiscal conservatism might mean taxing those who can afford it until the inequities that DO EXIST are removed enough that we don't need such expensive social welfare.


Keep abortion safe, legal, and above all...RARE!!!!

Like I thought, we pretty much agree on everything.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Thanks for the link for eclampsia.



So, it occurs in 0.056% of births. Less than a tenth of a percent. And it was listed as the leading cause of birth related deaths.




How many people kill someone in self defense a year?

It happens, and is a necessity born of the circumstance.

Should murder no longer be illegal because there are cases where someone must kill in self defense?



What I'm getting at here is that, yes there are situations where a choice may have to be made, and there should be protection for doing so (in much the same way that, although murder is illegal, they aren't going to send you up the river in a case of self-defense). But even though such unique circumstances do exist, you don't just throw wide the gates to legalize all taking of life under any circumstance because of that.

It is a weak argument on behalf of pro-abortion.

I assume you were thanking me since I posted the link. You asked for an example when a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother (as opposed to being an inconvenience) - I provided one such example. I did not use this as a argument for abortion to remain legalized. I merely stated that even the most restrictive anti-abortion law should take into account the life of the mother. You seem to agree with everything I said in my post, so why did you assume it was pro-abortion?

By the way, murder is always illegal - self defense is not murder. It is a justification for killing another human being. Murder is the unjustified killing of another human being. There are other circumstances where it is legal to kill. An executioner carrying out his/her job, a member of the military killing in the line of duty or a police officer killing a fugitive all come to mind.

Lou

Originally Posted by loueedacat

Like I thought, we pretty much agree on everything.

You are a very smart man, clearly. Where we disagree on this particular topic is at a place before reason, in some part of the mind that no amount of "argument" and discussion will likely change. I have enjoyed the conversation.

Originally Posted by voerman

I assume you were thanking me since I posted the link. You asked for an example when a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother (as opposed to being an inconvenience) - I provided one such example. I did not use this as a argument for abortion to remain legalized. I merely stated that even the most restrictive anti-abortion law should take into account the life of the mother. You seem to agree with everything I said in my post, so why did you assume it was pro-abortion?

By the way, murder is always illegal - self defense is not murder. It is a justification for killing another human being. Murder is the unjustified killing of another human being. There are other circumstances where it is legal to kill. An executioner carrying out his/her job, a member of the military killing in the line of duty or a police officer killing a fugitive all come to mind.

Lou

Lou,

Sorry if my reply came off as sounding "against" you, since you had been the one providing the info. That was not my assumption. I took your info and then segued into my arguments against the people who do use such infor as a means of justification.

Thanks again. I'll see if I can clean that up with an edit...

Let me ask another question:

If someone were to walk up to a pregnant woman and punch her in the gut hard enough to kill the fetus inside. Was a crime other than simple assault (on the woman) commited?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Let me ask another question:

If someone were to walk up to a pregnant woman and punch her in the gut hard enough to kill the fetus inside. Was a crime other than simple assault (on the woman) commited?

I am guessing the "mother knows best" philosophy will allow for the woman to declare at that time the value of the contents before damage occurred and tack that on in a civil suit

I have always found the notion of charging someone for the murder of an unborn child as we do in the states, at least some of the states.rather hypocritical considering that abortion is legal!

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I am guessing the "mother knows best" philosophy will allow for the woman to declare at that time the value of the contents before damage occurred and tack that on in a civil suit

You are getting more cynical by the minute Lee!

Much like with my views on the topic of abortion, I do believe that 1) it depends on the viability of the fetus and 2) this example/argument is radically different, as it is being done to the woman without her choice. One might just ask what crime one is guilty of if one physically forces a woman to have an aboution? Assault, of course. Some form of property crime, like if someone shoots your dog? No, that doesn't "feel" quite right, either. I do not believe that a (insert whatever early timeframe is within my moral code) gestational period fetus is a human being. As such, murder is not appropriate.
Perhaps a new class of crime, depending on gestational age? Forcible termination? Gestational Termination by force?

What if it is caused by negligence, not intentional assault? A wrongful death suit? What are the "damages?" (JUst saw that Lee posted this before me...huh.)

You are right to point out that the same arguments that we ought discuss regarding abortion should be discussed when violence or injury to the mother is concerned.

I qould guess that as you see abortion is murder, then punching the mother would clearly be murder as well, no?