Thread: Abortion: split from stem cell research

Originally Posted by jockeys

I'm pro-abortion. Probably the worst thing that can happen to a kid is having parents that don't want it. Abortion makes that situation fixable.

So how about if you "don't want" your 6 year old? Your teenager?

Should that situation also be "fixable?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

So how about if you "don't want" your 6 year old? Your teenager?

Should that situation also be "fixable?

you should have realized it sooner. ideally you would have realized it even sooner and used birth control, but not everyone is that responsible. the way I see it, if you decide to get rid of your older children, the state should take your kids and accept your ability to reproduce as payment.

I think this debate has been badly miscast by the media. I know very few people who think it is ok to have an abortion, and I know very few people who think it's a good idea to make it illegal. So the line between prochoice and prolife is misleading, because I believe a huge majority are both prolife and prochoice. To pick a random example, I bet Palin and Biden don't disagree much on the issue if you gave them both truth serum.

For me, the issue became a lot less philosophical when I saw the ultrasound for my first child. Having seen three ultrasounds and having had three babies, I don't see how anyone can say terminating the fetus isn't killing a human. And I see little moral distinction between modern abortion and the ancient greek custom of leaving infants that can't be supported to the wolves. I'm sure there are some who disagree, but I also have seen my friends change their views when they've had kids because when you've actually monitored and lived with a fetus you know it's not a parasite - it's really human.

Personally, I think bad things would come from illegalizing it, and it's a shame more people don't put their kids up for adoption if they can't handle raising it. I think aborting for convenience is one of the ultimate selfish acts. But we are selfish creatures, and I think you'd get back alley coat hanger abortions rather than more adoptions if you made abortion illegal. I also have to respect the views of others who don't think it's wrong, and others who are in different circumstances than me, but that troubles me, because a lot of bad things have been allowed to happen because people weren't willing to stand up for those that couldn't defend themselves. But ultimately if people want to kill their own fetus, it's tough for others to defend the fetus inside someone else, and it's not going to lead to good things for society to illegalize it.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the original question - since most believe it a profoundly wrong act, but most don't want to illegalize it, we should be putting a lot more effort into pushing behavior that cuts down on unwanted pregnancies rather than arguing over whether people that don't like the killingr of fetuses are anti-woman or whether people that believe in choice are babykillers, as that's not constructive.

GREAT post. Thank you for it.
I am one of those people who disagree with you. When my wife was pregnant, I was amazed that my views DIDN'T change. When I saw the very early ultrasounds (earlier than usual, as we had an early scare), I remember thinking that I already loved the thing that could BECOME a child. I am so very very glad that my daughter was wanted, and has been cherished since she was just a possible future human. But I can say that the thing we saw on that early ultrasound was not, in my moral view, a HUMAN. I give thanks daily that my wife and I are able to give her a good life and I hope we are doing right by her with our decisions. I pray that we are able to instill in her the values that would enable her to think for herself and come to her own conclusions on difficult issues such as this. I also hope deeply and sincerely that she (and everyone else's children) never have to make this decision, that is not easy for anyone I have ever known that made it.

To me, here's a fun/challenging part of MY moral argument. WHen does that pre-human clump of cells become an unborn baby? I don't know. Whenever it is, I feel a lot differently about terminating the pregnancy.

Back on point: Reducing unwanted pregnancies is the best way (IMHO) to reduce both abortions and unwanted children. To preach abstainance only (the only truly 100% effective method of STD and Pregnancy prevention) is to bury one's head in the sand and assume it is more effective than it is at actually stopping young people from having sex, and any people from having unsafe sex. Birth control (or more accuratly, conception control) is controversial...but for MOST people, it is a lot less controversial than abortion, no?


OH- and thank you to all the members here who have kept a conversation this deeply touching and troublesome issue polite, and friendly even where we disagree. It speaks volumes of the type of people that count themselves as members here.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

To me, here's a fun/challenging part of MY moral argument. WHen does that pre-human clump of cells become an unborn baby? I don't know. Whenever it is, I feel a lot differently about terminating the pregnancy.

How about at the point at which, if left as is, without outside interference, the unborn would continue to grow to term and be born?

I had posted this a while back in another discussion, so some of you have already seen it, but since it is particularly relevant to this discussion, I add it here as well.

I never knew such a thing existed. She can tell you for herself. She survived an attempted abortion.
YouTube - Gianna Jessen Abortion Survivor in Australia Part 1