Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Originally Posted by paco

As you say, I don't want to be offensive and hope I haven't been.
I am curious to know what PROPER EVIDENCE would be for you ?

If I have been or am being offensive (which I think is not true), then I apologize. It's human nature to ask questions, and I have not imposed my beliefs (or lack thereof) upon anyone.

I don't know what form "proper evidence" would have to take in order to convert me to a believer, but I imagine it would be something like what Tony Miller has said. He can't explain what made him change, only that it made him change, and I respect that. And I respect your right to believe in whatever you like as well. I'm not telling you that what you believe is wrong, all I asked for was an explanation for how the Bible timelines are so grossly mismatched according to what scientists will have you believe is fact. And telling me that science is wrong isn't really a great answer.

I mentioned before that I have a Catholic upbringing. In school, Catholic priests/nuns/teachers told us that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally; the Bible is meant to be interpreted to teach important lessons about right/wrong, and about God as a creator/provider. To me, at least this lesson made a little bit of sense because for me to believe men could live for 900 years and that there were no dinosaurs, mammoths, saber-toothed tigers, etc or that the first man ever to live lived only 13,000 years ago is an impossibility.

Again, just my take on things.

Originally Posted by paco

As you say, I don't want to be offensive and hope I haven't been.
I am curious to know what PROPER EVIDENCE would be for you ?

disclaimer: I speak for no man but myself.

proper evidence would be defined by me as a single, logical, compelling reason to believe. one that is personal, and not hearsay, and certainly not ancient, questionably translated hearsay that is written from a cultural perspective I will most likely never truly understand.

I spent 20 years living as I was taught. 20 years playing for a team I never really believed in. I travelled the world, as a missionary, and to my lasting shame, convinced others that I was right and they were wrong and scared them into believing as I was told I was supposed to. but I never did. dunno why. after all this time, I just think maybe some people have it in them to believe, and be content with it, and others don't; we have to question, we demand logical explanations, and we'll never get them. the concept of God(s) is necessarily non-deterministic. it can't be known, only believed in.

I think that belief helps some people. I've seen it turn the most screwed up people around, and heal broken lives. I've also seen it destroy families, and hurt people beyond repair. I've seen it take promising young people and turn them into slavering lunatics. for the precious few I saw it help, I saw it hurt hundreds.

as so, by their own rule book:
"Matthew 7
¹⁶Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
¹⁷Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
¹⁸A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
¹⁹Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
²⁰Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."


seems pretty cut and dried to me. as I said, there are people it helps, and more power to them. they're blessed. and vanishingly rare, in my personal experience. but whenever I see that unshakeable belief ruining someone's life, it breaks my heart. it's like an abused woman, clinging to her asshole boyfriend because it's all she knows. "he's good for me. he loves me. I deserve it." makes me sick to my stomach with grief and pity. I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by JMS

Congratulations on a great thread Jimmy but I fear this is the first post to a downhill slide.

Want me to post the second???

(How the hell did I miss this thread?! Must... resist... posting... my smartass... atheist... comments...)

Originally Posted by Philadelph

Want me to post the second???

(How the hell did I miss this thread?! Must... resist... posting... my smartass... atheist... comments...)

Why resist, Alex? Are you afraid God will smite thee?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Are you afraid God will smite thee?

I would be if any god existed!

Sorry- Lee made me.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

Want me to post the second???

(How the hell did I miss this thread?! Must... resist... posting... my smartass... atheist... comments...)

Actually the thread wasn't posted so we, meaning SRP, could have an intelligent conversation about religion. That is a given. I posted the thread to turn interested parties on to videos of intelligent people who have made the study of religion a life's work and they converse about it. Alex, if you go to the original post and follow the links there are some very interesting interviews to be seen and heard. Believers and non believers participating.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Why resist, Alex? Are you afraid God will smite thee?

Originally Posted by Philadelph

I would be if any god existed!

Sorry- Lee made me.

Originally Posted by jockeys

disclaimer: I speak for no man but myself.

proper evidence would be defined by me as a single, logical, compelling reason to believe. one that is personal, and not hearsay, and certainly not ancient, questionably translated hearsay that is written from a cultural perspective I will most likely never truly understand.

I spent 20 years living as I was taught. 20 years playing for a team I never really believed in. I travelled the world, as a missionary, and to my lasting shame, convinced others that I was right and they were wrong and scared them into believing as I was told I was supposed to. but I never did. dunno why. after all this time, I just think maybe some people have it in them to believe, and be content with it, and others don't; we have to question, we demand logical explanations, and we'll never get them. the concept of God(s) is necessarily non-deterministic. it can't be known, only believed in.

I think that belief helps some people. I've seen it turn the most screwed up people around, and heal broken lives. I've also seen it destroy families, and hurt people beyond repair. I've seen it take promising young people and turn them into slavering lunatics. for the precious few I saw it help, I saw it hurt hundreds.

as so, by their own rule book:
"Matthew 7
¹⁶Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
¹⁷Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
¹⁸A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
¹⁹Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
²⁰Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."


seems pretty cut and dried to me. as I said, there are people it helps, and more power to them. they're blessed. and vanishingly rare, in my personal experience. but whenever I see that unshakeable belief ruining someone's life, it breaks my heart. it's like an abused woman, clinging to her asshole boyfriend because it's all she knows. "he's good for me. he loves me. I deserve it." makes me sick to my stomach with grief and pity. I just don't get it.

Jockeys, I guess in a way I'm agreeing , However all I'm saying is as Christians we believe we should tell of our belief and then the decission is on the hearer. any who try to push it down someone's throat I don't agree with either. As has been going on her one states his case then the other states his and it should be left at that. Which is what I can see is being done.

to all

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Tony,

The bottom line is that everybody EDIT: should be happy with what they've got. I don't feel pained or empty because I lack a relationship with a higher power. And you feel great because you do have that relationship. Everybody wins, nobody loses, and we'll all just continue being friends.

That's the way I look at most things (besides religion, too). It makes everybody's life easier.

Thanks,

Ogie

Thank you. I hope I didn't imply in any way that you should believe, or be any less happy because you do not. I simply wanted to say I once thought as you did and by some odd twist of fate something changed. I was quite happy before and didn't expect it. I didn't go into this searching for religion, one day I felt a need to start reading the bible and later felt I wanted to start attending church again. It then became something I wanted, but I still did not fully believe and wondered why. As I posted earlier, that one day I felt a higher power speak to me through a fellow church member....almost saying now or never, trust this request, trust your will.

We each follow a path that is right for us and is uniquely ours. The path may change, it may stay the same. If you, and you alone are happy with it then that is where you should be. My wife and I are quite different in what we believe even though we are both Christians. She feels the Scripture is more of a guideline, I take it quite literally. While she never expected she would wind up worshipping in Mennonite and Brethren churches she has found quite a home there. My beliefs closely follow the anabaptist theology which is quite opposite of our Catholic unbringing.

Thanks,
Tony

Jimmy- some interesting videos. Joseph Goldstein had some good stuff to say. Honestly reminds me of TED: Ideas worth spreading but on a smaller scale in terms of what is discussed.