Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Originally Posted by paco

Did you not read the last statement of the post?

I did, but it sounded like an end of all discussions. Basically it postulates "There is no reason to this.".

I'm just tired and entertaining myself with basic logic. You can believe anything you like, just as I can believe anything I like. But while doing so it's still interesting to me to learn of your worldview. I hope you don't mind - seemed to me like you don't since you keep posting your thoughts.

Originally Posted by JMS

Forgive me Sir but I have yet to read a passage in any bible where Jesus says all scripture is the word of God.

this was the post:
To follow Christ is to believe Him and if Christ believes all scripture is God's word and He IS God, than i would think the follower should also believe all of it is true. And if the belief that Christ is not God incarnate then it is being said that Christ is a Liaror a madman, because He did claim to be GOD

Not a passage HE SAID IT ALL

i GOTTA STOP NOW IT'S STARTING TO GET REDUNDENT ON MY PART

Originally Posted by paco

, because He did claim to be GOD

Not a passage HE SAID IT ALL

T[/U]

Please show me where Jesus claimed to be God

Originally Posted by gugi

I did, but it sounded like an end of all discussions. Basically it postulates "There is no reason to this.".

I'm just tired and entertaining myself with basic logic. You can believe anything you like, just as I can believe anything I like. But while doing so it's still interesting to me to learn of your worldview. I hope you don't mind - seemed to me like you don't since you keep posting your thoughts.

MYSELF MY LOGIC

IT'S EASIER FOR ME TO ACCEPT THE LOGIC OF AN ETERNAL INTELLIGENCE WITH THE POWER TO CREATE, THAN AN ETERNAL SOMETHING BEING INERT [ HOPE THIS IS CORRECT WORD] IF NOT I MEAN SOMETHING DOING NOTHING WITH NO EXTERNAL CAUSE TO SUDDENLY HAVE THE EFFECT OF STARTING TO BECOME EVERYTHING .

Originally Posted by paco

this was the post:
To follow Christ is to believe Him and if Christ believes all scripture is God's word and He IS God, than i would think the follower should also believe all of it is true. And if the belief that Christ is not God incarnate then it is being said that Christ is a Liaror a madman, because He did claim to be GOD

Not a passage HE SAID IT ALL

i GOTTA STOP NOW IT'S STARTING TO GET REDUNDENT ON MY PART

LOOKS LIKE I CAN'T

Originally Posted by JMS

Please show me where Jesus claimed to be God

Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

Originally Posted by paco

MYSELF MY LOGIC

Sure, I do it for me, not for you - I don't have a desire to intrude on your worldview as it's you who makes that choice.

Actually I said 'basic', as in 'fundamental', the primary bits that all reasoning builds upon. These things are not 'mine', they are abstract and common to the human thought process. That predates the Biblical texts and is as current as the last photon of electromagnetic radiation that triggered an electric impulse starting at your retina going toward your brain when you saw this dot.

Sure you can believe that for example, like Jesus you can walk through walls, you can even attempt to act on it. God's logic will probably allow you to do so (if you believe enough), but the conventional logic when applied to the situation would put the probability of your success at ridiculously tiny (very definite non-zero) value. The difference between the conventional logic and the 'supernatural one' is that it has a predictive power, defined as repeatability.

Originally Posted by gugi

Sure, I do it for me, not for you - I don't have a desire to intrude on your worldview as it's you who makes that choice.

Actually I said 'basic', as in 'fundamental', the primary bits that all reasoning builds upon. These things are not 'mine', they are abstract and common to the human thought process. That predates the Biblical texts and is as current as the last photon of electromagnetic radiation that triggered an electric impulse starting at your retina going toward your brain when you saw this dot.

Sure you can believe that for example, like Jesus you can walk through walls, you can even attempt to act on it. God's logic will probably allow you to do so (if you believe enough), but the conventional logic when applied to the situation would put the probability of your success at ridiculously tiny (very definite non-zero) value. The difference between the conventional logic and the 'supernatural one' is that it has a predictive power, defined as repeatability.

I'm sorry but I have no idea of what you just said. That was so over my head that I'm seeing stars

Actually you skipped a major part of my argument. If the definition of a christian is someone who believes in the bible. Then by that sole argument everyone who lived before the bible was compiled is not a christian.

Also your argument about someone wanting to follow christ automatically believing in the bible is also not a solid one. One can believe in the main lines in the bible but believe that either the authors or translators were misstaken. Therefore the document can not be trusted and faith in the bible would be voided.

Having said that the bible makes many a reference itself on how it's not complete. So the bible can not be the Final word in scripture. It says so itself. If the bible is true then the bible is not the FINAL word on God. (I'm not saying that it's not true but at the very least it's not complete.)

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Actually you skipped a major part of my argument. If the definition of a christian is someone who believes in the bible. Then by that sole argument everyone who lived before the bible was compiled is not a christian...

Alex,

I think the argument is in reference to "fundamentalist Christians".

Brad