Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Originally Posted by joesixpack

but I have been able to maintain friendships with many faithful people who know that I am an atheist.

I grew up in Dallas, and I know that there are a good number of fundamentalist nut-cases out there, but there are also a lot of otherwise nice folks.

1. likewise, but those rare few are able to get along with me only by not speaking about it at all. i don't really think avoiding the issue counts. i suspect it's because they are so emotionally invested... they can't talk about it without getting irrational. but i'm guessing not everyone everywhere is that way.
2. oh, i'm sure there are, that's just my luck thus far

Originally Posted by paco

They were also not a true Christian in the sense ChrisL sighted either.

possibly. but who makes that call? i'd rather just skip that whole scene.

Originally Posted by paco

How does it cost me? Sounds to me like your saying a cost is a burden. Just like on this forum if your willing to pay the cost of a razor even if it's not worth what your paying [ and that's only someone else's idea of it's worth] , then it's worth the cost to you and not a burden.

1. i have watched religion ruin too many people's lives. some folks are happy with it, and more power to them. but religion HAS A COST. as i said before, it has financial costs (not such a big deal), it has emotional costs (huge, huge, unreasonable costs), it has loss of opportunity costs (nigh-infinite) and so many more. if you are willing to pay the cost, go to it and i wish you luck, but don't pretend there isn't one. it has a cost. and for me, the cost was too high. it was a bad investment, and like any rational person, i cut my losses.
2. if i buy a razor, i am implicitly stating that i'd rather have the razor than the money i'm paying for it. if i don't think it's a fair price, i wouldn't buy it. basic capitalism.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Here is a good read from Mark Twain on the topic. I first read this as a teenager and it still appeals to me. YMMV.

one of my favorite stories of all time. twain makes some damned [pun intended] good points, as he usually does.

Originally Posted by JMS

You weren't. Just Brads sense of humor, thats all.

or appalling lack thereof

Originally Posted by paco

It's either all true or not worth the paper it's written on.

dunno how I missed this before, but I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. the founding document of any religion must be atomic (in the computer science sense of the word) or the whole thing unravels.

Originally Posted by gregs656

the assumption is no other animals have a conscience. It is arrogant because the inference is that humans are superior. I didn't mean to be rude, I was a little merry when I wrote that.

I think it's interesting that the majority of the people who have posted here seem comfortable with their views. I guess I could wonder why nature cycles as it does.

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't just about all who don't believe in a superior being be INFERING that humans would be the superior being.

Originally Posted by Black Adder

I have just read every post in this long thread.

As we all know, this can be an emotionally charged subject. In all these posts, not once did I see any insults, defensiveness, condescension, or personal attacks.

Excellent, gentlemen, just EXCELLENT. I mean that!

Don

There is also a LADY here.

Originally Posted by paco

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't just about all who don't believe in a superior being be INFERING that humans would be the superior being.

not at all. many atheists, myself included, believe that man is just another animal.

to quote from the 7th Satanic Statement: " man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!"

Originally Posted by jockeys

1

1. i have watched religion ruin too many people's lives.

I am only using a partial quote from jockeys

I guess i should have said this up front, I do not combine Christianity with Religion. Religion is man trying to make himself right with God or whatever it's looking to. In other works I feel Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. Now many divisions within it have made it religion because of varing denominations which take the basic of Believe in Jesus and you will be saved to adding some of their own manmade rules and rituals.

Originally Posted by jockeys

not at all. many atheists, myself included, believe that man is just another animal.

to quote from the 7th Satanic Statement: " man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!"

I think we are animals, but more advanced. The capacity for fabulous and the capacity for viciousness is in us all. We have a choice in what we do, and we have (not entirely alone among animals, according to recent reserch) the ability to predict what kinds of possible results our behaviour will have.

Some people choose to be horrible. A lot of people choose otherwise - often at great expense (emotional or, physical/fiscal) to themselves. Still they continue to choose to do the right thing. These are the people - whatever their belief system- who give me a huge amount of faith in the human species.

Originally Posted by jockeys

dunno how I missed this before, but I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. the founding document of any religion must be atomic (in the computer science sense of the word) or the whole thing unravels.

I risk running afoul of some of my more fundamentalist brethren, but here is my take on this:

The Bible is NOT the founding document of Christianity. It is a collection of books about God written by men who wrote under the inspiration of God. As the noted non-believer Bart Ehrman has written (I have two of his books), the Bible has since suffered from translations, interpolations, interpretations, editors, adulterous kings, etc. It would be nice to have a 100% completely accurate translation of the Bible from the original manuscripts, but we don't. So I take it for what it is, warts and all.

Christianity was not founded by a document, but by a person. The whole point of the matter is that this person is WORTH knowing. If a person has WORTH, then the people who know him acknowledge his WORTHSHIP. (This is a roundabout etymology of the word worship.)

The early Christians didn't even have the New Testament, as it hadn't been written yet. Many of them couldn't read anyway, which is still the case today. But if God is real, then he remains a reality in spite of any flaws in books written about him, or jerks who make money hawking his name.

In my classes, I occasionally tell stories that involve people my students have never met: my sister, my best friend, my old boss, my ex-girlfriend, etc. As far as my students know, these could be real people, or I might have made them up. But if my sister came to class one day, I can imagine some possible comments: "I had pictured her completely different." Or, "She seems really nice; Now I don't believe those stories you told about her anymore."

So, if God is real, and you meet him someday, don't be too surprised if you find out that he's not the total jerk many have made him out to be.

I'm enjoying this thread. I like to hear from atheists and agnostics as well, and I respect their views. They have taken the time and effort to think things through, which unfortunately can't be said of all religious people.

PEACE!

Originally Posted by jockeys

dunno how I missed this before, but I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. the founding document of any religion must be atomic (in the computer science sense of the word) or the whole thing unravels.

I have to disagree with ya jockey, if all world religious books are deemed "books of advice" then you should be able to find bits of usefull information in them in the form of allegory or simple advice. I would say that all religious books have some good advice in there somewhere, and also many imperfections.

The imperfections are what make religions differnent, all on different paths to the top of the mountain. Wheras @ god(the mountain top) they all converge into the same thing.
Religions are just like tour guides(and often corrupt tour guides), take away the tour guides and the mountaintop is still there.

Anyway the idea that those books either have everything to teach you or nothing to teach you doesnt make sense as they must have some good advice, I can think of serveral bilbical stories that teach simple lessons that are usefull. Like that one where the old lady gives a little bit from the little she has and the rich man gives more than her but little compaed to what he has. You could rip that small story out of the bible and use it on its own as a wise piece of information.

I was brought up catholic but i am not one now, i never belived in god and didnt listen to anything told to me as a kid about it. But i still remember the stories and some of them are wise and usefull. At the moment I do think there is a god who is consciousness like we are.

Anyway all them books from all around the world are just like human bodies. They may not be 100% perfectly healthy but can still be partialy functional. Most peoples bodies are not 100% as perfectly healthy as possible but they still are functional to a certain percent. I would say the same is true of all the books that exist on a planet where that is true of all the people writing these books.
As for books written by god I dont know, the bible seems to have had some editing along the way(council of nicea). The closest thing that looks like god may have said it is an indian book called the bhagavad gita which explains alot of good advice, but again written/spoken by god i dont know.

Well my advice is to take good advice from wherever you can find it and not to get hung up on where it is found , even if it means a christian leaving one of their books to go elswhere or an athiest dipping in and taking a few bits from the bible. As long as your not bending truth to fit your own wishes then it should serve you well. Something as usefull as truth should never be bent, the same way a usefull razor shouldnt be bent as its gonna be more hassle to fix it.

Originally Posted by jockeys

not at all. many atheists, myself included, believe that man is just another animal.

to quote from the 7th Satanic Statement: " man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!"

Wait, Wait, Wait, you mean that the above hilite does not infer superiority?