Thread: For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

Elliete,
I would suspect that Paco "knows" just as I do....we feel it. I like you, read for years, tried to rationalize belief, tried to believe, etc..... I kept asking the same question, how will I know when I believe, how can I make myself believe.

I now feel God lets us know when the time is right, maybe he senses when we are ready and it just happens.

Mine was quite by chance. I went to a conservative Mennonite Church ( I am far from mainstream when it comes to religion) as I do not like all the fuss and show of most Sunday services. Hard wooden pews, no decoration, no music, just a sermon, our unassisted voice singing hymms, kneeling in prayer into our pews, etc....a simple humble service. As I had not attended at that particular church before everyone stopped to greet me after church. An older fellow invited me home for lunch but I declined as I needed to return home early that day. I immediately felt sorry for declining. As I left the church another, younger fellow took my hand and asked the same thing, would you join us for lunch. Again I declined, almost against my will though.....then an odd thing happened. Still holding my hand in a handshake he looked into my eyes and said "we won't keep you long". I felt as if another person was speaking through him, begging me, now is the time, you must do this. I agreed and meet another fellow also invited to lunch, a visiting Minister who's life story could have been mine. Same background, same path. Later that day I knew it was time and accepted Jesus into my life. It was just something I felt and a serindipitous event in a long journey to that point.

On a side note, after accepting his invitation he gave me directions to their home. as I turned to go to my car he stopped me and said "I'll go with you". Those words carried a sign to me. Years earlier I met a now 77 year old Amish man named Yonie. Normally the Old Order elders keep to themselves but on our first meeting I was trying to find a harness maker to help me with a project, Yonie didn't have the tools I needed but asked if I would pass by his home again later in the day. I said yes and he looked at me and said "I'll come with you".....not something a man in his station would do, not with an Englisher like me. We spent an enjoyable day visiting Amish families in the county. A friendship grew and we visit often, he is the man that lead me back to a belief in God and to hear the same "I'll come with you" years later from the man at church was a confirmation of what I needed to do. I related the event to Yonie later and he asked about the Mennonite fellow and where he lived....they knew each other well. To me it all played out exactly as it should.

I used to question, now I just accept and know. I feel no need or desire to question any longer, I simply gave in my will and the belief just took over. You cannot make it happen, it just does.

Sorry for the long winded answer but this was an important step in my life.

Thanks,
Tony

Thanks, Tony Miller, I appreciate the response. I think I see what you're saying here.

I know people have been there for me in ways big and small through life (some very very big ways). I think for me it is a matter of attributing their actions to them, rather than what some would call a higher power. I believe very strongly in the capacity for good in people - because I have seen it repeatedly. I have never felt that God was there - for me or at all. I know that will strike some as sad, perhaps, but I am not sad about it now - because of the people who have been there, mostly.

Don't get me wrong, I have been to a LOT of services and ceremonies, and many are quite moving (I even still like certain parts of Mass, and most of a Yom Kippur service) and even enlightening. But the belief in god part just never came. I tried to beckon it, so hard, but it was not there. I always had questions, and wanted answers. I was called arrogant by a couple of people for "daring" to ask questions, but I have a mind and I will not silence it.

I look at a church or a synagogue or mosque or whathave as a place for people to gather. Some are very beautiful, and some of the simplest are the most beautiful, and while I know that is meant as an offering to god, I take it as testament to the beauty that is inside of human beings and finding concrete expression through architecture. I also really like a good library. I am in awe of human achievement. I am also in awe of human failure - o, we fail spectacularly sometimes! But we do survive, and we pick up and build from literal rubble.

To me, to lay the successes of humanity at the doorstep of god/s is to sell ourselves short. It seems that this happens a lot - and to be fair, if the successes we create are attributed to Him, why then are not our failures? All that is good comes from god, but all that is bad comes from us? I do not think so. That just seems mightily dysfunctional.

Erm....was I rambling there? I think I was....

Like Tony said, it just happens. It's like meeting a friend that you will know for the rest of your life. I don't want to get dogmatic here, but to me, the cross is less about "atonement" than it was God himself slumming on our little soap opera world for thirty three years so he could get closer to us, and be our big brother. (Please, no Orwell jokes! )

I listened to Carlin, and laughed a little. I disagree with his premise, but some of his criticism is painfully close to the mark, especially as regards the money grubbers.

Originally Posted by gregs656

There is a great, and rather arrogant, assumption there.

Greg, You seem to be more knowlegdeable about what's in my head than I do . Please inform me what I am presumably assumming and how it would be arrogant, because I assumed nothing, just asked a question.

Originally Posted by Elliette

Well, he has made his position in re god/no god pretty clear, yes? This brings up something though, which is that it seems that often times "god did it" is the end of the line for exploration. There is a huge discomfort with the phrase "I don't know", and this seems to lead to what is termed a "god of the gaps" position.

I am wondering, and Paco seems qualified to answer this - how is it you believe that god is the source of such things? On what do you base this? What do you view as acceptable proof?

Qualified to answer, I don't know about that. First I seem to be amongst people with more schooling than I and don't understand some of terms mentioned. 1.- "God of the gaps, position" need that one explained in grade school language. 2.- " how is it you believe that god is the source of such things? " What things? I'm not following.

Originally Posted by paco

Qualified to answer, I don't know about that. First I seem to be amongst people with more schooling than I and don't understand some of terms mentioned. 1.- "God of the gaps, position" need that one explained in grade school language. 2.- " how is it you believe that god is the source of such things? " What things? I'm not following.

You are qualified in that you have the experience of belief.

"God of the Gaps" refers to the idea that if it cannot be readily explained, "God did it" is good enough. Oftentimes that is where enquiry ends, and further attempts are discouraged.

I might have been assuming there - do you think god is the source of conscience/ethics? If yes, why?

Originally Posted by Elliette

Thanks, Tony Miller, I appreciate the response. I think I see what you're saying here.

I know people have been there for me in ways big and small through life (some very very big ways). I think for me it is a matter of attributing their actions to them, rather than what some would call a higher power. I believe very strongly in the capacity for good in people - because I have seen it repeatedly. I have never felt that God was there - for me or at all. I know that will strike some as sad, perhaps, but I am not sad about it now - because of the people who have been there, mostly.

Don't get me wrong, I have been to a LOT of services and ceremonies, and many are quite moving (I even still like certain parts of Mass, and most of a Yom Kippur service) and even enlightening. But the belief in god part just never came. I tried to beckon it, so hard, but it was not there. I always had questions, and wanted answers. I was called arrogant by a couple of people for "daring" to ask questions, but I have a mind and I will not silence it.

I look at a church or a synagogue or mosque or whathave as a place for people to gather. Some are very beautiful, and some of the simplest are the most beautiful, and while I know that is meant as an offering to god, I take it as testament to the beauty that is inside of human beings and finding concrete expression through architecture. I also really like a good library. I am in awe of human achievement. I am also in awe of human failure - o, we fail spectacularly sometimes! But we do survive, and we pick up and build from literal rubble.

To me, to lay the successes of humanity at the doorstep of god/s is to sell ourselves short. It seems that this happens a lot - and to be fair, if the successes we create are attributed to Him, why then are not our failures? All that is good comes from god, but all that is bad comes from us? I do not think so. That just seems mightily dysfunctional.

Erm....was I rambling there? I think I was....

1.--I will not say I have the answers, but email me with some of them and I will try to answer as best I can. As forbeing called arrogant for asking how can that type of person expect to show the concern they should have? Please donot judge all Believers by those types, I have come across them in instances and their trying to prove themselves right and not just speaking what we believe as truth and leave it to the other to make a decision.

2.--I have explanation for this but is very involved. Again maybe privately by email this can be discussed.

Originally Posted by paco

1.--I will not say I have the answers, but email me with some of them and I will try to answer as best I can. As forbeing called arrogant for asking how can that type of person expect to show the concern they should have? Please donot judge all Believers by those types, I have come across them in instances and their trying to prove themselves right and not just speaking what we believe as truth and leave it to the other to make a decision.

2.--I have explanation for this but is very involved. Again maybe privately by email this can be discussed.

1 - I don't. That wouldn't be fair. It would be like judging all atheists by Hitchens.

2- PM me any thoughts you have. I am willing to discuss them here or in private, as you feel most comfortable.

Originally Posted by Elliette

You are qualified in that you have the experience of belief.

"God of the Gaps" refers to the idea that if it cannot be readily explained, "God did it" is good enough. Oftentimes that is where enquiry ends, and further attempts are discouraged.

I might have been assuming there - do you think god is the source of conscience/ethics? If yes, why?

This may sound like a pat answer and alude to the God did it hook, but it's all in the Belief and Faith. If I am to believe in a Creator God then I must have faith to believe He is who He says He is.

As I can see in all discussions I have had there are basically two camps. Creation, Evalution \ i don't know how to spell it. / [from Big Bang for i have no idea of other way to put it]. told ya I was not highly educated.

However in both there has to be a faith or belief that something or someone is Eternal, A form of matter which all evolved or a God that created. My logic, and i'm not saying my logic is better than anyone else, [don't want to be called arrogant again. Sorry had to take the shot]
is that this total existance of everything seems like it would need some sort of intelligence behind it, just to intricate, from the micro to the macro of everything just to be a coincedence of the right things coming together at the right time under the right conditions. It's like i'd have to say the smallest particle of matter given enough time equals everything. Just can't wrap my head around that. IMO!