Thread: Ammo Shortage

Originally Posted by Mike7120

...I wanted to shoot my Kimber so bad today, so I broke down and used some of my defense ammo for target practice.

Defense ammo? What is that?

I don't see the gun issue as a political one. I am a Democrat but I love firearms. I have said it before. I believe we should be able to do anything we want as long as we don't interfere with anyone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness. The problem is that people get guns and then go and kill innocent people. It seems to happen quite frequently. Kids in schools on rampages are a very frightening thought for a parent who has kids in college across the country.

Originally Posted by icedog

...The problem is that people get guns and then go and kill innocent people. It seems to happen quite frequently. Kids in schools on rampages are a very frightening thought for a parent who has kids in college across the country.

Actually, it happens quite infrequently. More kids die in swimming pools each year than die from guns.

Originally Posted by joesixpack

Actually, it happens quite infrequently. More kids die in swimming pools each year than die from guns.

Unless the swimming pools are used as a weapon this statement is meaningless.

I don't see it as meaningless at all. If your issue with the easy access to guns is as a result of your concern for the safety of children, then you should focus on the things that actually are dangerous to them.

But your point is really "No one tries to assult someone with a swimming pool. These are accidental deaths, not criminal acts." And I would agree with you there as well, so I'll make another comparison. More children are killed by abusive parents every year than die in gun violence. Parenting is still pretty unregulated though, and while there has been a real effort on the part of society to protect children from abusive parents, no one has ever seriously suggested the idea of prior restraint for potential parents.

Have children taken guns to school and used them to murder their classmates? Yes. Is it a horrible crime? Yes. But horrible crimes tend to result in horrible laws. I don't want to see anything like Colombine ever happen again either, but increasing the restrictions on firearms will not prevent these crimes from happening. As a number of people here have already stated, it's already Illegal to murder someone. There are plenty of laws in place that seek to prevent that. Adding another law that makes it illegal to bring a gun to school won't stop someone who is already intending to commit a crime.

I don't look at gun crontrol laws as evil, and I don't think that thew people who advocate them are evil either. People want to prevent bad things from happening to children, or anyone else for that matter. Hell, so do I. But making it harder for me to buy a gun won't make anyone safer. There were already laws in place to prevent Kleebold and Harris from doing what they did, but they managed to break those laws before they fired a single shot. Those guys committed numerous felony violations of state and federal law, including the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968, even before the massacre began.

Sorry, this is a long post.

Originally Posted by joesixpack

I don't see it as meaningless at all. If your issue with the easy access to guns is as a result of your concern for the safety of children, then you should focus on the things that actually are dangerous to them.

But your point is really "No one tries to assult someone with a swimming pool. These are accidental deaths, not criminal acts." And I would agree with you there as well, so I'll make another comparison. More children are killed by abusive parents every year than die in gun violence. Parenting is still pretty unregulated though, and while there has been a real effort on the part of society to protect children from abusive parents, no one has ever seriously suggested the idea of prior restraint for potential parents.

Have children taken guns to school and used them to murder their classmates? Yes. Is it a horrible crime? Yes. But horrible crimes tend to result in horrible laws. I don't want to see anything like Colombine ever happen again either, but increasing the restrictions on firearms will not prevent these crimes from happening. As a number of people here have already stated, it's already Illegal to murder someone. There are plenty of laws in place that seek to prevent that. Adding another law that makes it illegal to bring a gun to school won't stop someone who is already intending to commit a crime.

I don't look at gun crontrol laws as evil, and I don't think that thew people who advocate them are evil either. People want to prevent bad things from happening to children, or anyone else for that matter. Hell, so do I. But making it harder for me to buy a gun won't make anyone safer. There were already laws in place to prevent Kleebold and Harris from doing what they did, but they managed to break those laws before they fired a single shot. Those guys committed numerous felony violations of state and federal law, including the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968, even before the massacre began.

Sorry, this is a long post.

Either you are intentionally missing my point or I am not communicating clearly enough.

This gun thing for me is moot. I happen to like guns. I am trying to explain what the issue is for the people who want to make it difficult to own guns. It has nothing to do with swimming pools(I still don't understand why you would throw that out). It is the ease with which people who may trip off the line and run amuck can obtain firearms. There is a law enforcement system in place that is supposed to protect us and for most people it works well. I have no fear that would justify my having a loaded weapon in my home and I hope most people feel the same way. But here's another case of a kid who grabbed his father's legal handgun and brought it to school:
Welcome to Charter.net - News
People who want more gun control want to know how to stop this sort of thing. Any ideas?

Originally Posted by icedog

Either you are intentionally missing my point or I am not communicating clearly enough.

This gun thing for me is moot. I happen to like guns. I am trying to explain what the issue is for the people who want to make it difficult to own guns. It has nothing to do with swimming pools(I still don't understand why you would throw that out). It is the ease with which people who may trip off the line and run amuck can obtain firearms. There is a law enforcement system in place that is supposed to protect us and for most people it works well. I have no fear that would justify my having a loaded weapon in my home and I hope most people feel the same way. But here's another case of a kid who grabbed his father's legal handgun and brought it to school:
Welcome to Charter.net - News
People who want more gun control want to know how to stop this sort of thing. Any ideas?

How about better parenting???

I think the point that josixpack is trying to make is this:

-it was illegal for that kid to carry that gun
-it was illegal for him to shoot that gun at the teacher
-it was probably illegal to have a gun on school grounds

What more do you need in terms of gun laws? The LAWS are there but we each have a responsibility to help keep them enforced. The father in this case maybe should have kept it in a locked safe with a combination that only he knew, knowing he had a child around. His bad. Not the law's. If a man or child wants to break a law, he will do it however he can. The father legally owning a gun didn't cause this crime or even (dare I say) make it worse. That kid would have found a way to do what he did regardless.

Insane trumps illegal every time. The laws are clearly immaterial to someone who is willing to shoot strangers, let alone loved ones. The issue is that to people who don't have guns, there is no reason to have a gun and it is too easy for a nut to kill people with a gun. This kid in Louisiana had easy access to a piece in it clearly facilitated his attempted murder/suicide.

Originally Posted by icedog

Either you are intentionally missing my point or I am not communicating clearly enough.

I can assure you, I am not trying to miss your point.

This gun thing for me is moot. I happen to like guns. I am trying to explain what the issue is for the people who want to make it difficult to own guns.

I can pretty much guarantee that everyone here understands what that issue is. It's public safety. People who want to make guns difficult to get are trying to prevent guns from getting into the hands of crazy people who will use them to kill others. We all understand that.

It has nothing to do with swimming pools(I still don't understand why you would throw that out).

I was trying to illustrate the irrational desire to limit civil liberties for the sake of public safety, when there are far greater dangers that could be addressed without striking an entire ammendment from the Bill of Rights. The issue is public safety, plain and simple. If crazy people didn't ever hurt others, you wouldn't care what they did. You care about crazy people hurting and killing people.

I am trying to be as clear as possible here. If you want to save lives, you should devote your resources to the greater dangers, not the ones that make the headlines.

Yes, high profile school shooting rampages make headlines and stir emotions, but far more kids are killed in mundane household accidents, drowning, and car accidents.

You want to save lives? Don't let teen agers drive.

Just to be sure you understand why I'm bringing up car accidents and teen age drivers when you want to talk about gun violence, I'll try to make it more to the point. You only care about guns because they take lives. It's lives you are wanting to save. Therefore, you should really address the activities that take the most lives. I'm not trying to sound pedantic here, it's just that I want to make sure you understand what I'm trying to say.

It is the ease with which people who may trip off the line and run amuck can obtain firearms.

What you're suggesting is prior restraint.

There is a law enforcement system in place that is supposed to protect us and for most people it works well.

For many it does not work so well. The average response time where I live is around 10 minutes, and about 30 minutes after midnight. Someone could do a hell of a lot to me or my family in that time.

I have no fear that would justify my having a loaded weapon in my home and I hope most people feel the same way.

There is no law that says you need to have a loaded gun in your home. I'd like it if you didn't try to prevent me from having one just because you feel safe where you are.

But here's another case of a kid who grabbed his father's legal handgun and brought it to school:
Welcome to Charter.net - News

As I said before, horrible crimes make for horrible laws. The law against murder didn't stop this kid from doing somethign really horrible, so taking my right to purchase a gun won't prevent this from happening again.

People who want more gun control want to know how to stop this sort of thing. Any ideas?

We all want to stop this sort of thing, but consider the fact that increasing gun control hasn't made these things happen less frequently. In fact, they seem to happen more now.

I want to see less crime, just like you. I want the right to defend myself as well. The suggestion that taking that right from me will somehow make me safer, makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Jeeter Thanks for talking down to me, it really inspires respect for you.

I don't remember addressing you at all. What the hell are you talking about?

Icedog


Please allow me to explain...


"It is the...Dylan Klebolds and Eric Harrises...and the rest of the whackos that are driving the efforts to control gun ownership."

Icedog


It is a Federal Statute, I can't immediately remember which one, that states it is a felony for any person under the age of 21 years, to POSSESS a handgun. For those two losers to have a handgun in their possession was a Federal Offense...
(Remainder of my post ommitted for brevity. It's still up, should you need to look at it again.)



It was THIS ^ post that elicited your response:

The argument is not limited to kids with guns. I listed several adults, like Charles Whitman, Colin Ferguson, etc. who owned legal guns and went crazy. Yawn...nevermind. You gun guys, do me a favor. If you decide to go on a rampage, kill me first.


I answered with:

Yawn...nevermind. You gun guys, do me a favor. If you decide to go on a rampage, kill me first.

Icedog


I have owned guns (Handguns, Rifles and Shotguns) for over thirty five years, closer to forty. I have yet to go on a rampage, go insane, go Postal, or anything of that nature. Thanks for talking down to me, it really inspires respect for you.


THAT is what I'm talking about AND why. Your response, worded as it is and closely following mine, makes it pretty apparent you were addressing me. At least it does to me.

Originally Posted by icedog

The problem is that people get guns and then go and kill innocent people. It seems to happen quite frequently. .

yes it does
these people are called criminals
carjackers
rapists
home invaders
robbers
murderers

"defense ammo" are the munitions most well suited to ending their miserable stinking lives.