Thread: Don't buy windows 7 yet.

Mozilla Thunderbird w/ addons is very similiar to outlook.

Originally Posted by commiecat

Wow, this is hilarious. Can we just live with the fact that Windows users are going to skew things to show their point, and that Linux users will do the same?

Absolutely fine by me. As long as comparisons are fair, and meaningful. Comparing installation times of a pretty bare bones Operating System to those of a full desktop environment is neither. Just as an example.

Originally Posted by commiecat

As soon as you put a Windows computer on the Internet it will be infected with viruses? Seriously?

Profile, don't speculate. Survival Time | SANS Internet Storm Center; Cooperative Network Security Community - Internet Security

Originally Posted by commiecat

As soon as you install Linux you'll gain 80 pounds, have oily skin, and will go back to using disposable razors. Isn't it fun to wildly exaggerate?

It seems to be to you. One wonders why.

Originally Posted by commiecat

OOO vs. MS Office is a joke. OOO is decent. GIMP is decent. They're both terribly inadequate when compared to MSO and Photoshop. Examples? I can't count how many times I've opened an MS document in Open Office and had the formatting all borked.

I can't count how many times I've opened an MS document in MS Office and had the formatting all borked. Only, that's not supposed to happen. Were Microsoft to make its file format public, there would be no conversion problems. So the problem is not with OpenOffice, but with Microsoft. On a tangent, those broken MS Office documents usually opened ok in OOO. Well, duh.

Originally Posted by commiecat

Last I checked, Evolution did not work well with Exchange 2007. Even with previous versions of Exchange, Evolution was lagged. I'd love to see an administrator try to switch corporate users from Outlook to Evolution.

I've successfully run heterogeneous corporate networks. In any event, open-xchange.com | now available in many languages would solve the problems you describe. And no, I am not recommending Exchange for production use.

Originally Posted by commiecat

We can go on and on. I use BSD on occasion but Windows otherwise. I support a corporate environment. Linux is great for our web server and ERP server, but that's the only value I see. I don't like the GPL, I don't like the non-standard distribution, and I can't help but laugh at the Fisher Price naming scheme of Ubuntu. They should just call it "Baby's First Operating System".

Interesting. Your technical decisions are based on personal preferences, character judgement, and limited experience. Why does it not surprise me that Windows is your operating system of choice.

Originally Posted by commiecat

I must admit that it is fun to debate this stuff on a shaving forum, though.

Absolutely. Knowing that someone with a grudge to bear, and a razor or two in his hands might be living round the corner adds an extra moment of excitement. Now then, what is that unmarked black van doing in front of my apartment?

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Profile, don't speculate. Survival Time | SANS Internet Storm Center; Cooperative Network Security Community - Internet Security

Nice that you can't graph data after November 2008. But in November it seems that an unpatched Windows system would last a few hours, depending upon which day. That's far from "as soon as you put it on the Internet" and plenty of time to actually patch it, so thank you for validating my position.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I can't count how many times I've opened an MS document in MS Office and had the formatting all borked. Only, that's not supposed to happen. Were Microsoft to make its file format public, there would be no conversion problems. So the problem is not with OpenOffice, but with Microsoft. On a tangent, those broken MS Office documents usually opened ok in OOO. Well, duh.

I've had no such issues with Office '07. Must be you.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

I've successfully run heterogeneous corporate networks. In any event, open-xchange.com | now available in many languages would solve the problems you describe.

You said Evolution would play nice with Exchange. I was just pointing out that, last I checked, it actually didn't. Might be different now but Evolution still doesn't list support for Exchange '07.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Interesting. Your technical decisions are based on personal preferences, character judgement, and limited experience. Why does it not surprise me that Windows is your operating system of choice.

Wow. This is the kind of vapid statement I'd expect from a Mac user. Let's get all snooty and personal over our operating systems and judge people we don't know. No surprise that you're a Linux user. Had an Atari computer, avid BBSer, went to PC and DOS/Win3, first BSD was FreeBSD 3, first Linux was RH 5.2. Yeah, my experience is limited oh great computer guru.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Absolutely. Knowing that someone with a grudge to bear, and a razor or two in his hands might be living round the corner adds an extra moment of excitement. Now then, what is that unmarked black van doing in front of my apartment?

I don't mind friendly debate and have no issues saying "touché", but if this is gonna be a "Wow, you use Windows? What's it like being new to computers?" flame war then I'm out.

Originally Posted by commiecat

Nice that you can't graph data after November 2008. But in November it seems that an unpatched Windows system would last a few hours, depending upon which day. That's far from "as soon as you put it on the Internet" and plenty of time to actually patch it, so thank you for validating my position.

I think you are jumping to conclusions here. We were talking about home systems. How many of those will get patched before the attack happens?

Originally Posted by commiecat

I've had no such issues with Office '07. Must be you.

As I said, profile, don't speculate. I had documents that would either not open, or were so broken that they had to be re-done in major parts. If you chose to ignore that these problems exist, that is fine. It is not, however, very convincing.

Originally Posted by commiecat

You said Evolution would play nice with Exchange. I was just pointing out that, last I checked, it actually didn't. Might be different now but Evolution still doesn't list support for Exchange '07.

I just read Evolution: A New Outlook for Linux | Linux Magazine (registration required) and Novell Documentation, then connected to a company Exchange server. OWA is certainly not the fastest option available, but it works flawlessly.

But that is beside the point. The point was that because of Microsoft's licensing scheme, alternatives to MS products cannot be sensibly programmed. Case in point, interaction with a mail server. The problem is not with Evolution, it is with Exchange's undocumented API.

Originally Posted by commiecat

Wow. This is the kind of vapid statement I'd expect from a Mac user. Let's get all snooty and personal over our operating systems and judge people we don't know. No surprise that you're a Linux user. Had an Atari computer, avid BBSer, went to PC and DOS/Win3, first BSD was FreeBSD 3, first Linux was RH 5.2. Yeah, my experience is limited oh great computer guru.

You seem to have omitted your original statement. Here it is again:

We can go on and on. I use BSD on occasion but Windows otherwise. I support a corporate environment. Linux is great for our web server and ERP server, but that's the only value I see. I don't like the GPL, I don't like the non-standard distribution, and I can't help but laugh at the Fisher Price naming scheme of Ubuntu. They should just call it "Baby's First Operating System".

Personally, I find the last remark particularly interesting with respect to your previous remark.

I will not go into my personal computer history, but it is similar to yours, just add a few years. The difference maybe being that I chose to choose whichever tool works best for the job. I am completely impartial to the software I use, as long as it does its job, and is properly maintained. In the same vein, I would not call myself a Linux user. I do use Linux, obviously, but it is not my OS of choice. It gets many jobs done efficiently, including home machine for many of my friends. But that's about it. Linux does have sides I deeply despise and several technical aspects of it are painful. But I retain the right to point out flaws in comparisons.

Originally Posted by commiecat

I don't mind friendly debate and have no issues saying "touché", but if this is gonna be a "Wow, you use Windows? What's it like being new to computers?" flame war then I'm out.

A classical non sequitur.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Personally, I find the last remark particularly interesting with respect to your previous remark.

...

I chose to choose whichever tool works best for the job. I am completely impartial to the software I use, as long as it does its job, and is properly maintained.

I see a difference between making fun of Ubuntu's naming scheme and questioning a person's experience with whatever. I choose software the same way as you -- the tool that is best for the job is generally my personal preference. Well, one of your three listed reasons for my technical decisions was right.

Windows is best for me and it also happens to be the source of my livelihood. If a company wants to close their source code then that's their option and I'm fine with it. I don't blame them for incompatibilities with the open source world.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

Ubuntu linux however, has the friendliest and easiest system set up I've ever encountered. I have handed the disk to the most computer illiterate of people, and watched them set up their system.
You put the disk in and reboot (just like windows) and you ignore all of the prompts until it asks you what language you speak.
Then you continue to ignore all of the prompts until you are presented with a fully functional linux desktop running live from the CD.

I have to say this is a nice touch. I burned a Ubuntu CD to try it out then forgot about it. Next time I booted I went off to do something, came back and there it was running Ubuntu. I chose not to install at the time, so I played with it for a while, using the Internet, looking through the Windows partitions and so on.

Microsoft could take lessons from this approach.

Of course the reason Linux can be this easy is because it has to be, to persuade users it is worth trying.

Microsoft on the other hand, can happily continue providing obscene bloatware that is so insanely complex that only a handful of its own people have a true understanding of it.

I will probably always have Windows running on most of my machines, but thank God there is competition to force Microsoft to show some consideration to its customers.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

Of course the reason Linux can be this easy is because it has to be, to persuade users it is worth trying.

ITYM Apple. Linux does not have to do or be anything (except from the perspective of a commercial vendor, which Ubuntu is not). It simply is.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

Microsoft on the other hand, can happily continue providing obscene bloatware that is so insanely complex that only a handful of its own people have a true understanding of it.

I doubt that even that is true, i.e. no-one really sees the big picture anymore. But you have to give Microsoft credit, too. They have been doing a rather decent job at securing their OS, and increasing its overall quality. If you compare Windows with what it was 5 years ago, and then again 10 years ago, you will find that they're on a good road. Personally, I see no reason whatsoever to use Widnows, but I appreciate that they have been trying to make the IT world a less horrible place.

Originally Posted by jockeys

Windows XP Pro SP3 vs. Ubuntu Hardy Heron

If Robin an others hadn't already pointed out all of your logical and technical fallacies, I'd have to spend half an hour responding to this.

as it is, there's only one or two things to point out.


Windows XP was released in 2002 or 2003.

Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy Heron) Was released in 2008 if memory serves. (I'm now using 9.04)


That means that any serious comparison between the two is utterly pointless. You may as well compare Windows7 to Apple IIe, or compare OSX to DOS. It makes no sense to even engage in such a comparison.

Had you compared 8.04 to Vista, which actually would have been logical, you would have had a very different experience.


Also, unless I'm mixing your post up with somebody else's, I believe you went on for a bit about developing software in C#. I won't flame you for that. C# is great for what it's for. The problem is that "what it's for" is developing windows only applications in a windows environment. If you are a C# developer, you DEFINITELY fall into the "linux is not for everybody category" and I'm a bit surprised that you would have even bothered.

It's a bit like buying a PS3 so you can access your email from home. It just doesn't make any sense.

However, that doesn't mean that Windows has any meaningful advantage over linux for software developement. For C, C+, C++, Java and every other major programming language, there are a wide array of excellent IDEs and many command line tools as well for people who prefer to write code the old fashioned way.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

Windows XP was released in 2002 or 2003.

Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy Heron) Was released in 2008 if memory serves. (I'm now using 9.04)

Had you compared 8.04 to Vista, which actually would have been logical, you would have had a very different experience.

a valid question. let me ask you... if I had compared ubuntu 5 or 6 to xp, do you think my experience would have been different? i ask in all seriousness.

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

For C, C+, C++, Java and every other major programming language, there are a wide array of excellent IDEs and many command line tools as well for people who prefer to write code the old fashioned way.

as I mentioned, a lot of the drivers I write are written in C or C++. none of the development tools I tried on linux (although to be fair, I hadn't heard of kdevelop so I didn't try it) came close to using visual studio to write C++ (which I do, and then compile it for whatever device with the appropriate compiler).

also, you mention using command line tools for the old-fashioned experience. it's old fashioned for a reason. professional developers haven't written code that way since the 80s, and for good reason, it's very inefficient. also, I'd still like to see some collaborative tools for linux development, but if all the FOSS coders are as cheerful and Linus or Hans i can see why that's not the case

(note: that last part is a joke. i expect i'll still have an inbox of angry pm from linux zealots, but i thought i'd put up a disclaimer anyway )

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

Windows XP was released in 2002 or 2003.

Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy Heron) Was released in 2008 if memory serves. (I'm now using 9.04)

However, that doesn't mean that Windows has any meaningful advantage over linux for software developement. For C, C+, C++, Java and every other major programming language, there are a wide array of excellent IDEs and many command line tools as well for people who prefer to write code the old fashioned way.

xp was released in 02...

Ubuntu versioning (year).(month) 8.04 April 2008...
if i'm not mistaken, there is a release in april and another in octuber (.10)

for development in Linux you can use Eclipse or NetBeans...
Both support java/c/c++ and many other languages...