Thread: Downin some brewskis with the pres YO YO !!

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

or maybe the guy could have backed down ... Why do people refuse to back down even when it is clearly in their best interest.

No disrespect, GWH, but not backing down is something that makes America great. Not cringing in the face of officialdom is what created this mighty Republic in the first place. I would have done the same thing: It's my house, dagnabbit!

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

There are racist people in the world, but there is such an over-exaggeration of prejudice on a "macro-social scale" (for lack of a better phrase), at least in America.

Is it an over-exaggeration or is it the perception of the prevalence and scope of racism that is really the most damaging? I'm white, but I try always to "put myself in someone else's shoes". The worst part of racism I see is how it cripples someone's mind in even a paranoid way.

This is a lame example but hopefully gets my point across: Picture 100 white people. Say hypothetically 10 of them would truly be considered racist. If a person of a minority race looks at those 100 white people, how many of the 100 would THEY think are racist based on their experiences in life, what they've been told or taught, based on history, etc. Who knows, but let's say in their mind they would think 90 of the 100 were racist. Other than actual physical harm that would be racially motivated, to me the worst part of racism is what it does in the minds of those who are of a minority race. A prisoner of the "over-exaggeration". I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does and it's real. I think what Oglethorpe is getting at and what I believe is that the PERCEPTION of the scope of racism is larger than any actual racism at present. But...IMO that's no better.

Quick story: When we were dating years ago my wife dragged me to an Indigo Girls show. When the show was over as we were getting up to leave we kissed. A woman and her lesbian partner in the row in front of us must have seen our embrace. One of them turned to me directly with a big smile and said something that I assumed must have been friendly (it was too loud to hear what she actually said). I smiled back. INSTANTLY her smile turned into anger and she started a 15 second tirade about how I was somehow flaunting heterosexual opression of homosexuals by kissing my girlfriend and how SHE has to live her life in a world where she's oppressed for doing the same thing. How dare I! They walked out and my girlfriend now my wife and I stood there was our jaws agape. What stunned me and what I wanted to say to her after my surprise and shock subsided is: "What in blazes do I care if you make out with your girlfriend in public (save the lesbianism is hot thing guys, that's now what I mean)? I could give a rip if you or someone else "married" a goat or a turtle let alone express affection with your partner. My point in sharing this story is that in HER MIND SHE was obviously not comfortable in showing affection for her partner in public and I think she ASSUMES most people are watching her and oppressing her in some way.

Chris L

@igtur: a 20-hour flight from China is irrelevant. If the guy was smart (Harvard) he would have closed his yap and just allowed the officer to do his job. Then they could have both gone their separate ways and been done with it. I have seen interviews with the professor and couldn't help but get the impression that he was using this incident as a springboard for his own personal crusade against whatever he thought the "bad guy" did wrong. Like I said, national attention.

Originally Posted by ChrisL

Is it an over-exaggeration or is it the perception of the prevalence and scope of racism that is really the most damaging? I'm white, but I try always to "put myself in someone else's shoes". The worst part of racism I see is how it cripples someone's mind in even a paranoid way.

This is a lame example but hopefully gets my point across: Picture 100 white people. Say hypothetically 10 of them would truly be considered racist. If a person of a minority race looks at those 100 white people, how many of the 100 would THEY think are racist based on their experiences in life, what they've been told or taught, based on history, etc. Who knows, but let's say in their mind they would think 90 of the 100 were racist. Other than actual physical harm that would be racially motivated, to me the worst part of racism is what it does in the minds of those who are of a minority race. A prisoner of the "over-exaggeration". I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does and it's real. I think what Oglethorpe is getting at and what I believe is that the PERCEPTION of the scope of racism is larger than any actual racism at present. But...IMO that's no better.

Chris, my point exactly. It's so over-exaggerated that now minorities who don't know any better or are just ignorant (see GW's example for the latter) don't know what to believe. It's because people keep the "race card".

Now, in modern times, part of the "don't know any better or are just ignorant" population contains the majorities as well. Now both sides play the race card.

By now everybody thinks I'm racist. This is not farther from the truth. I am about fairness. Sometimes the race thing is very evident and I'm against it (see Rush Limbaugh vs. Donovan McNabb or Don Imus vs. Rutgers Girl's Basketball). But was the cop being unfair by asking the professor for ID when responding to a burglary? Is it so inconvenient that he be harassed on his own property when all he had to do was take a step back and realize that the police are looking out for his own safety? Or, do people actually think that the cop is so stupid that he would try to arrest a man in his own house for no good reason (or because he was prejudiced)? Take race out of the equation and put yourself in the professor's shoes? Would you flip out on a cop for responding to a burglary call (speculation or otherwise) at your house?

For these reasons, I think Obama was WAY out of line, and for the mayor/DA of wherever to issue an apology on behalf of the police was out of line, too. Maybe I'm short on the facts but the way I look at it, we're supposed to be cooperative with law enforcement. Even if we feel like we're being detained against our will, we cooperate because we are grateful for the service they provide. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

keep in mind there could be any number of things happening in the next room while the officer was talking to Gates


here is a story of gang rape
Man found guilty in Mission Beach home-invasion, rape of college students : North County Times - Californian 02-20-2008

here is one where the house was burned around them
Conn. Doctor Wants Death for Men Accused of Murdering His Family - Crimesider - CBS News

honestly, don't you WANT the police to do their job ?

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

If the guy was smart (Harvard) he would have closed his yap and just allowed the officer to do his job. Then they could have both gone their separate ways and been done with it. I have seen interviews with the professor and couldn't help but get the impression that he was using this incident as a springboard for his own personal crusade against whatever he thought the "bad guy" did wrong. Like I said, national attention.

If showing proper deference to law enforcement was really all that the "anti-Gates" posters on this thread cared about, then there should have been much more uproar about that white fellow in Pittsburgh a couple of months back who shot up the police who were called to his house under somewhat different circumstances. Where was the outrage then? Or, is something else at work here?

Oglethorpe--please see my post above about excessive meekness in the face of authority.

Originally Posted by igitur55

If showing proper deference to law enforcement was really all that the "anti-Gates" posters on this thread cared about, then there should have been much more uproar about that white fellow in Pittsburgh a couple of months back who shot up the police who were called to his house under somewhat different circumstances. Where was the outrage then? Or, is something else at work here?

The two are unrelated. Gates had nothing to hide. All he had to do was be grateful/cooperative.

Originally Posted by igitur55

Oglethorpe--please see my post above about excessive meekness in the face of authority.

I liken the responsibility of the police (while on a much lesser scale) to that of the military, in that they risk their lives as part of their jobs. If you feel threatened by the authority figure, then you exercise your right to fight for whatever reason in court. Knock yourself out.

I'll just be respectful and courteous, and say "thanks", and "yes sir" and be on my way.

Ogie

Originally Posted by igitur55

If showing proper deference to law enforcement was really all that the "anti-Gates" posters on this thread cared about..............

(hint..... the poll questions usually give some clue as to the direction the conversation should take)


I voted raise a stink and protest until Obama either apologizes or eats his refusal.

OOOOOOOOO maybe that was the topic .........

maybe it was a thread about Obama refusing to apologize
maybe it was a thread about Gates refusing to apologize

hmmm??

maybe it was a thread about people failing to do what is in their own best interest out of stubbornness or stupidity

it could be any, but it isn't

Sgt BEER?
or
Sgt NO BEER ?

I didn't realize this before and I don't know if it is relevant to this conversation but I found it interesting none the less: The white police sergeant, Crowley, is the one who suggested they talk it out over beers. ("'Teachable Moment' Observed With Beer" WSJ, 31 Jul, 2009).

I think being a cop must be one of the hardest jobs in the country. The folks you are stopping are never happy to see you. The people who are grateful for the job you do aren't nearly as present in your life.

-Rob

If it were me, I would go for the free beer and see how things turn out. Maybe the Pres and I would get a bit loaded, jump in the limo with Secret Service at the wheel, and play a little mail box baseball around DC!

Seriously though, the opportunity to personally meet the leader of a country and share a beer is a once in a life time event - whether you like or dislike that person and or politics, I think you have to take that opportunity.

Cheers,

Did you get invited, GW?