Thread: This one is seriously painful.

Originally Posted by natepaint

If our prison system is set up to conform a criminal, to our laws, then no, no one should be put on death row. They should all have a chance to prove themselves worthwhile, productive citizens.
If our prison system is set up to, deter crime, deny a criminal, liberties, rights, and life, then by all means let them hang.
Our prisons have become a, horrible, hybrid of these two and does not work.

A Criminology professor at the University of Maryland taught precisely that. The system is to function in both capacities you explained.

@greg - I only read your statement the way you worded it. If stating that more and more of these vile crimes are popping up was not to be considered in light of the other part of your statement, then why state them together (or at all in light of the discussion on capital punishment).

@all opposed to capital punishment in these types of cases. Some say it's not the job of society to judge on life and death of criminals and some say it's less punishment to be put to death than to have to live your life in prison (without possibility of parole, which, even when sentenced that way, is not an absolute). I say get rid of these scumbags for all reasons put together, so we don't have to pay for them to live, so we don't have to worry about possible paroles, and so that their existence is wiped out (degree of punishment notwithstanding) to the same degree they affected their victims.

@JokiJo - I'm with you and I don't understand greg's comment on the sick or children. If you commit the crime, you should be held accountable for your actions. Plain and simple. A person being sick has nothing to do with being held accountable for their actions. It's not their fault they are sick. However, crimes committed "under the influence" are damn well the responsibility of the guilty.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

@greg - I only read your statement the way you worded it. If stating that more and more of these vile crimes are popping up was not to be considered in light of the other part of your statement, then why state them together (or at all in light of the discussion on capital punishment).


@JokiJo - I'm with you and I don't understand greg's comment on the sick or children. If you commit the crime, you should be held accountable for your actions. Plain and simple. A person being sick has nothing to do with being held accountable for their actions. It's not their fault they are sick. However, crimes committed "under the influence" are damn well the responsibility of the guilty.

The latter part, about frequency, was a side note at best. In fact, it was in light of the topic of the OP, about the case at hand. Not about the latter discussion.

And, yes, a persons illness might have EVERYTHING to do with them being held accountable for their actions. Schizophrenics, for example. Children, also, are not judged in the same light as adults. So, in a court of law, not every one is held accountable for their actions in the same way.

Also, I don't believe it is 'universal' for people to be held directly accountable. In some cultures, the family is as much to blame (for example).

I didn't directly refer to crime when I said 'what about . . . hell even those under the influence' it is true that many people use the fact they were drunk (for example) as a scape goat for their actions, and often, things are forgiven on this basis. So, therefore, it is true that they are not held fully accountable, and that alcohol shares the blame.

At the middle of your piece, that is akin, in my opinion, to sweeping things under the rug. If society is not willing to punish the monsters it creates, if it takes the easy way out to reduce it's own anxiety, then what can we expect?

Originally Posted by MisterDavid

it is completely hypocritical to use the eye for an eye argument. killing prisoners has no benefit, other than to make some people feel better. therefore you're simply killing them for your own enjoyment.
the purpose of locking them up is to prevent them from doing it again, so by all means lock them up and throw away the key, but to do to them what they did to others is to become criminal and evil yourself.

ciao,
misterdavid

I think your use of "hypocrite" is way off base. You are calling me a hypocrite based on my stance on the issue. This would imply (by definition) that I pretend to believe that capital punishment is appropriate in this case.

Unless I'm wrong, "hypocrisy" is favoring one side of an argument when it is convenient and opposing it when it's not.

I doubt anyone who shares my point of view could be appropriately labeled "hypocrite" when it all boiled down to making the call. Rest assured, I'd have my finger on the button / hand on the switch / finger on the trigger / etc for this guy and his partner.

Originally Posted by gregs656

The latter part, about frequency, was a side note at best. In fact, it was in light of the topic of the OP, about the case at hand. Not about the latter discussion.

And, yes, a persons illness might have EVERYTHING to do with them being held accountable for their actions. Schizophrenics, for example. Children, also, are not judged in the same light as adults. So, in a court of law, not every one is held accountable for their actions in the same way.

Also, I don't believe it is 'universal' for people to be held directly accountable. In some cultures, the family is as much to blame (for example).

I didn't directly refer to crime when I said 'what about . . . hell even those under the influence' it is true that many people use the fact they were drunk (for example) as a scape goat for their actions, and often, things are forgiven on this basis. So, therefore, it is true that they are not held fully accountable, and that alcohol shares the blame.

At the middle of your piece, that is akin, in my opinion, to sweeping things under the rug. If society is not willing to punish the monsters it creates, if it takes the easy way out to reduce it's own anxiety, then what can we expect?

greg - fair enough. It looked like a single thought to me.

Also, very true about sick people, and I do not mean to say that if the same two folks were maniacally insane (which I'm sure they'll try to prove in court), but I do agree that there are extenuating circumstances. Children are impressionable and make mistakes -- also an extenuating circumstance and I agree the sentence should be altered accordingly.

But, and I'm sure this is where JokiJo was going (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), for able-minded and -bodied people who have chosen to take such a course of action, they have got it coming. I do not look at it as taking the easy way out or sweeping it under the rug. I look at it as eliminating the source of the problem.

In computer language, if you got a virus, you may need to reformat the hard drive.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

But, and I'm sure this is where JokiJo was going (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), for able-minded and -bodied people who have chosen to take such a course of action, they have got it coming. I do not look at it as taking the easy way out or sweeping it under the rug. I look at it as eliminating the source of the problem.

Unfortunately, this is not what he said. I do not believe it is universal, I believe that it is entirely down to the case at hand. I also believe that it depends on the culture.

You might be eliminating the proximate cause, whilst casually ignoring the ultimate one.

In any case, if you really believe death is a punishment, then nothing I will say will change your mind. I appreciate I look at things differently, and that is reflected in many threads on this board, and others.

An interesting analogy, and I will counter with this one, in computer language, you reformat your HD. Doesn't stop the virus coming back though, does it? Sure, you relieved the symptoms, but that's about it.

Society is what makes people the monsters they are? Excuse me?

If you have a mental illness, and can't function correctly in society, then you don't belong where you can hurt other people.

"I didn't know better" is not a viable excuse.

It wasn't when I got beat with a broom stick when I was little and definitely not now that my actions carry considerably more weight.


If you have a mental illness that impairs your ability to not rape and murder someone, then by God you'll get nothing but a bullet from me.

Individuality and the responsibilities that come with it are what makes humanity different then other species on the planet. We're not any less brutal, we're not any more vital to the world then anything else.

Originally Posted by JokiJo

Society is what makes people the monsters they are? Excuse me?


Individuality and the responsibilities that come with it are what makes humanity different then other species on the planet. We're not any less brutal, we're not any more vital to the world then anything else.

Indeed it does.

It's not? Why not?

So, you regularly kill the mentally ill? Or is that just a hollow statement? Some how, I think the latter? Please, prove me wrong, stand by your convictions as I stand by mine.

I don't think I suggested anything else? In fact, I think there are far too many of us. However, I don't believe any man should have the legal right to sentence another to death. if anything, we are less vital, because we have the arrogance to believe we are more vital.

I might also add that individuality is very much a western thing, you would do well not to believe that your way of life is the only, or the best, way to live it. There are many collectivist cultures in the world, and we have much to envy, as they do.

It's easy to pick apart sentences and attack individual words-


Much harder to take an entire stream of thought and put an edge to it though, huh?

Yes, if I were to witness someone rape and murder someone, you dang well bet I would shoot him down. No, I don't walk around killing the mentally ill, because I highly doubt there are very many out there that can justify rape and murder.


I have no false imaginings that there aren't millions of people out there that can justify rape and murder, but I do think that that would be their choice to do so, and whether they realize or not, they should and most likely will be held accountable for their actions.


I'm sorry, but it no way can I see how someone should get away with murder. No matter the reason, killing an innocent is killing an innocent, whether you're mentally ill, drunk, or other wise, you are not safe for other people to be around, UNLESS there is a known cure for your problem.

Originally Posted by JokiJo

I'm sorry, but it no way can I see how someone should get away with murder.

hahaha, I think I can pick apart a stream of thought.

I'm not sure where I said any one should get away with murder?

All I'm saying is your statement that it is a universal fact that every one is held accountable for their actions is untrue, many people are not.

if you were? So you have no experience to base the ideal that 'you would shot him on', you're just assuming that is what you would do. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you would like to.

Most likely, perhaps. Maybe not, though, pull me some figures up?

First to the OP, I read it and as a father of two young girls was very bothered by it. (i spent 20 minutes looking at mini-gps trackers)And continually it is proven that this sort of person does not reform, ever, and yet he was free. somebody pointed out that "without possibility of parole" doesnt' always mean that, hell, in some states "life" isn't really life, but jurors don't even know that when deliberating. this guy never should have been let out. in my personal book of what's bad crimes against children is at the very top.

Now, to the spinoff. I support the death penalty, my ONLY reservation with it is the corruption of the justice system. I've sat in a courtroom and watched somebody get shafted. vindictive, job justifying officers, overzealous glory hungry prosecutors and incompetent legal council. then look at OJ, does anybody really believe he was innocent? really? So my worry is the guys that are in there that didn't really do it but are in the wrong place wrong time, or ****ed off the wrong cop, were on trial during an election time etc.

Even with that concern I still find it highly appropriate. There of course needs to be judicial discretion and intelligent people applying laws. if a teenager accidently, really accident, kills somebody the judge can look at it and sentence accordingly. if you have a hardened criminal, who commits senseless murder, why not the death penalty? so what if it is an easy way out for them. The point is not just about punishment, it is about protecting society. why spend the 30k plus a year, times 40 years (what is that, about 10mil) keeping them alive. that's just stupid.

My friend's uncle was attacked I want to say about a year ago. He was taking his evening walk around his neighborhood when a gang member, 34yo, attacked him with a bat and beat him to death (he actually died the next day in the hospital). You know how much time he's doing, 5 years. how can that not make you feel rage at the injustice of our system. 5 years for senseless murder?

HE deserves death penalty, and since there were witnesses (who at first were too terrified of the gang to testify and they thought the guy might just walk) why is it a long drawn out thing? I like the comedian that said texas not only had the death penalty but they had an express lane.

I will agree that part of the reason we have more people like this is society. society IS softer now, we don't demand politeness from people, and things that could deter future lawlessness aren't done. I'm a big supporter of corporal punishment. if you spray paint my fence, egg my car, throw rocks at my car, you should be whipped in front of your family and friends. the pain PLUS the embarrassment is a deterrent. ACLU of course would have a fit. I tell you though, you show you're willing to handle things like that and it woudln't take long and problems would be largely curtailed.

there's no reason to steal in the united states, if you're homeless you can get food and shelter in a variety of places, no need to go hungry. most theft is by drug addicts or lazy people, or just plain bad people. if we had policies more in line with the middle east in punishing theft, people would stop stealing. (first time lose a finger, I guess that gives you a few chances, eventually whole hand)

the whole system is just screwed up, horribly. I had a colleague a few years ago, she was driving home after a PTA meeting, had some parents in the car with her, a drunk driver with 9 previous arrests for DUI hit them and killed all but her. and him of course. 9 times. now that is somebody that should have gotten serious jail time, PRIOR to the incident. habitual drunk driving? give him a good dry out spell, a couple of years might sober him up.

Red