Thread: Constitutionality of Obamacare

That may be the Constitution, but in the Declaration of Independence, written and signed by many of the same people this was said:

"...governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

If we are unhappy with the government/Constitution, we have teh right to change it. That is the fundamental principle of Democracy, and is evidenced by the numerous Amendments tacked onto the Constitution, covering a range of things from slavery to voting to booze. If something is currently unconstitutional, but we think its good to have, we can change the Constitution.

If health care (insurance) is to be "fixed" There is other aspects that need addressed as well. How about Law suits which allow large sums of money for stupidity. ( I spilt a hot cup of coffee in my lap. You gave it to me so it's your fault so you owe me one million dollars. / The Doctor gave me a prescription for sleeping pills but instead of going to bed I went for a drive and I crashed. Hey Doctor that's malpractice you owe me three million dollars. ) I use to live in an area where the MD's were leaving in droves because of all the frivolous law suits. As for that, as long as Insurance, Health care, and prescription drugs are big business I don't see a fix. Too much red tape, too many loop holes, too many greedy people looking to get rich off of someone else's misery or off their own incompetence.

Since this thread is about constitutionality, I thought it appropriate to add this link: Constitutionality Crisis

I've read just a portion of the site and the author, so far, makes some very good points.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

If health care (insurance) is to be "fixed" There is other aspects that need addressed as well. How about Law suits which allow large sums of money for stupidity. ( I spilt a hot cup of coffee in my lap. You gave it to me so it's your fault so you owe me one million dollars. / The Doctor gave me a prescription for sleeping pills but instead of going to bed I went for a drive and I crashed. Hey Doctor that's malpractice you owe me three million dollars. ) I use to live in an area where the MD's were leaving in droves because of all the frivolous law suits. As for that, as long as Insurance, Health care, and prescription drugs are big business I don't see a fix. Too much red tape, too many loop holes, too many greedy people looking to get rich off of someone else's misery or off their own incompetence.

I'll give you that there are some lawsuits out there that shouldn't see the light of day. That being said, lawsuits like the hot coffee are a big deal. The one that most people think of has to do with an older lady that orders a cup of coffee from McDonalds. Having drank the stuff for years, she knows that she can safely drink it as soon as she gets it- until now. McDonalds discovers that they can save money by serving lower quality coffee at a much higher temperature, in effect burning the tastebuds right off. The woman is scalded badly because of it. McDonalds purposely made the coffee at a much higher temperature without telling anyone, and indeed with intent to cheat the customer. It all has to do with the reasonable person.

Anywho...

As long as we're swinging off topic, I'll try to get back to a part of the topic. I think that a form of national healthcare is viable and even needed to an extent. Give the private insurers a reason to be competitive and everyone will win. Based on the recent bailouts, however, I don't know if this government is capable of doing it. The money can be had from various sources, such as cutting off social security and MedicAid to illegal immigrants. Cut back on foreign aid. Any number of things.

If I could choose, I would much rather my tax money go to giving another American decent healthcare than having it go to a foreign country.

Originally Posted by honedright

Still, even if we can keep a private health plan, we have to pay for both the public plan AND the private plan. Gee thanks for making us a little poorer.

If your private insurance company has to actually compete with a no-frills program for the general public, they might get cheaper too.
You realize that much of what you are paying now goes to a complex administration and a horde of lawyers, right?

Originally Posted by honedright

Assuming private insurance survives. I don't see how it will. BTW, I don't know, but how well does private health insurance do in countries that currently have national health care? Is it a booming industry?

Booming perhaps not, and why would it? I see insurance companies as a necessary evil. I tolerate them at best. If they start to lose focus and try to squeeze as much money out of their clients as possible, they are no more then scum in my eyes.
Businesses do not 'deserve' to survive. That's the whole idea of capitalism: competition is good for the consumer, and if a business can't cut it, it goes under in favor of better ones.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Businesses do not 'deserve' to survive. That's the whole idea of capitalism: competition is good for the consumer, and if a business can't cut it, it goes under in favor of better ones.

So then you would be in favour of massive monopolies? You know the ones that buy out/crush small business? Would you say Straight Razor Designs is better or worse than if, say, Walmart took up selling straight razors? Because financially Walmart could kill any small business it wants, even one run by experts who give amazing customer service...

Originally Posted by khaos

So then you would be in favour of massive monopolies? You know the ones that buy out/crush small business? Would you say Straight Razor Designs is better or worse than if, say, Walmart took up selling straight razors? Because financially Walmart could kill any small business it wants, even one run by experts who give amazing customer service...

Monopolies? Of course not. They are the antithesis of competition. Pure capitalism is just as evil as pure communism. Capitalism needs market regulation and overview in order to stay honest and not shaft the consumers.

The take SRD as an example: Honestly, if walmart takes up selling straights, I don't think it would matter one iota. In fact, I think it would be beneficial to SRD. SRD caters high quality services and products to people who care. Walmart sells cheap stuff to the general public.

People who shop with one will not shop with the other.
Even if walmart would end up selling livi, most of the people buying from SRD do so because they have more confidence when doing business with people who are experts, who care about service and who have a passion for their game. Walmart will never be able to fill that role without becoming more expensive than SRD.

In fact, if walmart starts in the straight business, uptake might improve significantly, and the number of people finding their way to SRD would likely be higher than the number of people switching from SRD to walmart.

Walmart cannot kill SRD because they cannot prevent SRD from doing business. They could, if they could somehow get exclusive deals with all custom makers. And this will never happen because they will not be able to get all artisans on board. Not the ones who care about what they are doing.

Canada has great health care, and the majority of Americans would probably appreciate a similar system, since the majority of US citizens are not rich enough to "afford an illness" or prolonged hospital stay. Because it's fundamentally a socialist concept, though, a lot of ignorant people seem to be freaking out and saying absurd things like they're afraid of the country "turning communist!"

Originally Posted by khaos

So then you would be in favour of massive monopolies? You know the ones that buy out/crush small business? Would you say Straight Razor Designs is better or worse than if, say, Walmart took up selling straight razors? Because financially Walmart could kill any small business it wants, even one run by experts who give amazing customer service...

In some areas the current health care system already has monopolies. Alabama has been the focal point for this; some studies say that BC/BS has 90% of Alabama's market, and BC/BS themselves say that it's 75%.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say that cheapest wins and leave it at that. If a competitor can offer all the same services for less money then you either: change your process to lower your costs, offer more value at the same price, or close shop and leave.

Some people choose WalMart, but not everyone. Bruno is spot-on -- I don't think WalMart would at all be competitive to SRD. If anything it would probably help us because people buying razors would eventually come here for information and stay because SRP is just flippin' awesome.

Originally Posted by Bruno

If your private insurance company has to actually compete with a no-frills program for the general public, they might get cheaper too.
You realize that much of what you are paying now goes to a complex administration and a horde of lawyers, right?



Booming perhaps not, and why would it? I see insurance companies as a necessary evil. I tolerate them at best. If they start to lose focus and try to squeeze as much money out of their clients as possible, they are no more then scum in my eyes.
Businesses do not 'deserve' to survive. That's the whole idea of capitalism: competition is good for the consumer, and if a business can't cut it, it goes under in favor of better ones.

How is any industry, that depends on earned profits to survive, supposed to compete with a government that obtains it's operating expenses by robbing (not earning) from others, and then doesn't care if it makes a profit or not?

Isn't this just the type of dishonest business practice that you say it is the role of government to regulate and protect us (the consumer) from?