Help me pick my 9mm

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10-06-2009, 06:57 PM
Whiskers

Quote:

Originally Posted by JokiJo

For every action there is an equal and opposite action. If the recoil isn't enough to knock you off your feet, then the energy the bullet is expending is not, either.

This quote is complete troll material.

Dude, if you are seriously posting this comment ... please use a bit of tact and just bow out of this discussion.

Also, you may be interested in taking a physics class or two.
You might actually learn something.
10-06-2009, 06:58 PM
singlewedge

I just wanted to say thanks for all the information.

It has really turned me off the 9mm. I found that there are a few NRA ranges here and I will have to go and see if I can find a mentor or something that I can borrow his/her gun to shoot.
10-06-2009, 07:11 PM
ionthejester

Quote:

Originally Posted by khaos

With regard to stopping power- mythbusters took a 200lbs pig (=200lbs of bone, flesh, etc.) and shot at it from max velocity range (almost point blank) with various guns and only things like a 50cal MG could really know a man backwards. Knock them off balance, maybe, off their feet, no.

Another point I'd like to make, because I personally have no experience shooting at other humans, is from a discussion I had with a police man. Your odds of defending yourself against an assailant are slim at best, nothing like the movies.

To demonstrate this he gave me his holster and (unloaded) side arm, had it on me unlocked and everything so I could get it out as fast as possible, and stood on the other side of the room from me (20ft). His challenge? He had a knife, I had to draw and shoot him before he could stab me. He used a pen as a mock knife. Needless to say he got me twice before I could bring the gun to bear. Now bearing in mind that the holster was essentially a bucket holster (and carries should never be in bucket holsters) and I was ready, how fast do you think you could react in real life? Even if you were trained, he said you have probably 15ft range, inside that you'll have to be lucky.

On top of that, when I asked him, why don't police shoot for like, the legs or arm or something non-lethal? His response was, hitting an arm or leg on a paper target in teh range is as easy as hitting anything else. Try hitting a leg or an arm while someone is running at you/taking cover/trying not to die. Bottom line according to him was if they are attacking you enough to warrant using a gun, you shoot at the torso first, ask questions later.

Moral- if you're drawing a gun on a human you better have a good reason and you better be ready to kill. Cus if they are coming at you you may not have time to get of 4 shots, let alone non-lethal ones...

Using rubber training weapons (knife and gun) someone once showed me this same thing to emphasize the point that training is important. You have to learn to deal with many situations and tactics to be effective when using a firearm because even in a 'standard' situation like this it's very difficult to succeed.

As was stated before people tend sink to their training which tends to be what was ingrained into their head through repetition instead of rising to the occasion. Higher thought processes get replaced with instinctive reactions and those instincts need to be trained if you want something more than chaos.

There are many good training options out there. One day I'll make a trip to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, or one of the others to have some fun and learn more.
10-06-2009, 10:51 PM
JokiJo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskers

This quote is complete troll material.

Dude, if you are seriously posting this comment ... please use a bit of tact and just bow out of this discussion.

Also, you may be interested in taking a physics class or two.
You might actually learn something.

...

That's not troll material. I am fairly certain I've shot enough and own enough and killed with enough guns to know what I'm talking about in this respect.

I was speaking the truth, and all you can do is yell hate speech. I'm sorry if I offended you. But let's be serious, a gun doesn't have enough energy to knocked you bodily off your feet. It may cause you to jump reflexively or similar, but in that case it could be done with any caliber of gun expending any amount of energy.
10-06-2009, 11:04 PM
ionthejester

Being slapped for saying the wrong pickup line to some lady at the bar can knock you down if you're surprised by it.

How about we leave it at that and move on?
10-06-2009, 11:22 PM
thebigspendur

Well let me talk as a guy who carried a gun on the job for many many years. During various times I carried a .45, .38,.357mag, 9mm, S&W40. First it doesn't matter how good a round or caliber is if you can't be accurate with it its worthless to you. You can shoot someone at 10 yards with a 22 short and it will kill him and hit someone else with a .45 and it won't. Its about luck, placement and the person your shooting. if your worried about 1 shot knockdown buy a 12 gauge with slugs. With a handgun unless you hit him in the head or spine the chances of a knockdown are slim.

The problem with a handgun is the larger the caliber the more powder just flies out the barrel without really doing anything. Take a typical handgun with a 2-4 inch barrel and shoot that round out of a rifle and its a totally different picture.

Oh and a .45 hit that lifts someone up in the air. he must has weighed 60 lbs or less. There is a famous incident in the NYPD back in the 1960s where a Sgt was coming home after work and he was accosted by a dude with a hunting knife. The Sgt was carrying a 1911 and put the entire mag into the guys chest at point blank range and not only didn't the dude get knocked down but he put the knife into the Sgts heart killing him instantly and then the dude turned and ran away getting about 100 yards before he fell down dead. An autopsy showed the guy had no heart left.

As far as how you will react to an incident you don't know. No one knows until he or she is tested. You might think you know but that and train fare will get you on the train. The only way to give you the edge is to practice again and again until its so automatic you don't think, you react because if you have to think your dead because you will hesitate.
10-06-2009, 11:51 PM
nizdog

CZ-75 Shadow. Very accurate and a great deal for the money. They say that if Czechoslovakia was not part of the Soviet block this would be a side arm of US Army.
10-07-2009, 01:13 AM
Quick Orange

I don't have an opinion on brand or caliber, but here are a few tips that I've picked up that seem to be golden rules when it comes to guns:

Don't pull it unless you're going to kill someone. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6; dead men tell no tales.

Along the same lines as the above, don't pull it if you can't put a bullet right where you want it in a paper target. Thankfully that can be remedied with some range time.

Shoot your prospective guns before you buy them. If you don't know how to shoot, take some classes so that you can properly evaluate what you like and dislike in a gun. You may find that you're better with something that you didn't really expect. For instance, I found out that I far prefer a 44 magnum (the "Dirty Harry gun") than a 45 auto. It falls into my hand perfectly and I can put the 44 round right where I want it every time, no matter how long it's been since shooting it.

Don't buy into the hyped up self-defense/home defense crap. What it will come down to is how comfortable and well trained you are with your weapon, not whether you have glowing sights, lasers, compensators, etc.

Let's us know what model you decide on. Pics or it didn't happen :D
10-07-2009, 01:38 AM
zib

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionthejester

Being slapped for saying the wrong pickup line to some lady at the bar can knock you down if you're surprised by it.

How about we leave it at that and move on?

Good Advice....

:soapbox:
10-07-2009, 02:22 AM
JokiJo

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well let me talk as a guy who carried a gun on the job for many many years. During various times I carried a .45, .38,.357mag, 9mm, S&W40. First it doesn't matter how good a round or caliber is if you can't be accurate with it its worthless to you. You can shoot someone at 10 yards with a 22 short and it will kill him and hit someone else with a .45 and it won't. Its about luck, placement and the person your shooting. if your worried about 1 shot knockdown buy a 12 gauge with slugs. With a handgun unless you hit him in the head or spine the chances of a knockdown are slim.

The problem with a handgun is the larger the caliber the more powder just flies out the barrel without really doing anything. Take a typical handgun with a 2-4 inch barrel and shoot that round out of a rifle and its a totally different picture.

Oh and a .45 hit that lifts someone up in the air. he must has weighed 60 lbs or less. There is a famous incident in the NYPD back in the 1960s where a Sgt was coming home after work and he was accosted by a dude with a hunting knife. The Sgt was carrying a 1911 and put the entire mag into the guys chest at point blank range and not only didn't the dude get knocked down but he put the knife into the Sgts heart killing him instantly and then the dude turned and ran away getting about 100 yards before he fell down dead. An autopsy showed the guy had no heart left.

As far as how you will react to an incident you don't know. No one knows until he or she is tested. You might think you know but that and train fare will get you on the train. The only way to give you the edge is to practice again and again until its so automatic you don't think, you react because if you have to think your dead because you will hesitate.

THANK YOU.

And quick orange too!

You speak sense. There is enough energy being released in almost every production caliber to kill someone instantly. Aside from that, it's all luck.

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