Help me pick my 9mm

It has always interested me that when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald with that one round of 38 special that he dropped like a rock and died shortly thereafter. The bullet hit some vital organs and I suppose that was by chance since I doubt if Ruby had a knowledge of anatomy.

OTOH, then famous heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams was shot 5 times in the stomach with a 44 magnum at point blank range by a Texas highway patrolman and survived. He was a little worse for wear judging from the photos of him when he was released from the hospital but that is pretty heavy.

One more comes to mind... Greg LeMond had won a Tour De France and was hunting when a family member mistook him for a deer. He shot him in the stomach with a 12ga deer slug. Not only did LeMond survive but he came back to win the Tour 2 more times.

this is my home defense gun!!!!!!!!!!

Stoeger Industries | HD Video

Something we forget all too often these days is at our base, humans are still animals and therefore we have an incredible ability to survive adverse conditions... like traumatic injury.

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Originally Posted by Doc

this is my home defense gun!!!!!!!!!!

Stoeger Industries | HD Video

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I've always wanted a good side-by-side style gun and was close to buying a Stoeger in the past. I couldn't justify another "bird gun" (as I called it) to the woman. I have since converted one of those to a scoped slug gun so I may have more of a chance now. ;)

Simple fact and I think it has been mentioned in this thread already.. Talking about any kind of KD numbers, or even what type of handgun is totally useless until you pick up a handgun....

Rifles are different, I will talk all day long about penetration, accuracy, kinetic energy, etc:etc;

But a handgun is like a woman, it is all about how she fits, and how you handle her...

If a handgun functions and points in the general direction of what you want to hit, that is really good enough... Considering the majority of handgun shootings occur within 7 feet (search it yourself) you don't even have to be that good a shot but you do have to be able to function the weapon...

And what everybody says about you don't know how you will react is so true...
First time I got shot at the only thing I managed to do was drop in a low crouch and not pee my pants...
Later after a few more times it actually started to Pi$$ me off....

Shoot as many types as you can, before you buy, if at all possible...

The absolute best weapon, is the one you have in your hand when you need one... and your brain...


If yer ever heading through Idaho send me a PM we'll shoot some...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

If yer ever heading through Idaho send me a PM we'll shoot some...

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Will do. If Idaho lets me in of course :)

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Originally Posted by JokiJo

wtf?

I'd think that entire paragraph through a little more. There is many reasons to own and carry a gun.

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Read the Op's post again. He is talking about self defense handguns, and then states he is unwilling to kill. Hence my response.

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Originally Posted by JokiJo

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That's not troll material. I am fairly certain I've shot enough and own enough and killed with enough guns to know what I'm talking about in this respect.

I was speaking the truth, and all you can do is yell hate speech. I'm sorry if I offended you. But let's be serious, a gun doesn't have enough energy to knocked you bodily off your feet. It may cause you to jump reflexively or similar, but in that case it could be done with any caliber of gun expending any amount of energy.

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Dude ...

Gun recoil does not equal bullet energy. Plain and simple.

Just because you own and shoot a gun does not automatically make you a physicist.


For the rest of the crew .. yes, I know ...
:deadhorse:

Technically, recoil energy == bullet energy. Given air friction, the bullet energy will be even less than the recoil energy.
In this house we obey the laws of physics.

However, reflexive action on impact can make people get flung away or lifted off their feet. I am a noob to ballistics, but the same effect exists in martial arts, where a hit or kick can have a disproportionate effect because of a reflex or flinch that the brain initiates in order to soften the blow.

For example: if someone swings a shovel at your face, and you notice it a second before impact, chances are you will flinch back and the impact will lift you off your feet. If you just stand there wistling a tune when the shovel hits, you go straight down.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

Read the Op's post again. He is talking about self defense handguns, and then states he is unwilling to kill. Hence my response.

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It is not that I am unwilling to kill. In defense of myself, family or home I would. I challenge anyone to say "they are prepared to kill". Again I restate given the proper operant conditioning anyone can be "prepared to kill", military, police etc., those that lack the appropriate operant conditioning are not prepared to kill. No matter how hardcore someone thinks they are with a gun a human being will always hesitate IF they are not properly conditioned.

I am not properly conditioned. I know this. I am up front with this. I plan on training myself to become conditioned and that will change my stance. Until that happens, I have to be truthful with myself and others. I know that if the time comes I must pull the trigger. That truth does not make the act easier to deal with.

If no one has read the book "On Killing, The psychological cost of learning to kill in war and society" by Grossman I highly recommend picking it up and reading it.

Oddly killing involves much more than pulling a trigger. It involves a dehumanization of the target. Hence Hogan's Alley where "real" looking characters are used for the police. The book describes a sniper school in Israel where the instructor uses ketchup filled cabbage heads dressed in street gear with appropriate faces. The object of the exercise is for the sniper to become "ok" with seeing a head explode and pieces and blood fly everywhere.

To be able to dehumanize a person that is standing in your living room is hard especially at hand gun range. At shotgun range it is probably easier. Anger and fear are probably the driving factors when operant conditioning is not available.