Thread: There's water on the MOON!

So is it your position that we shouldn't use fossil fuels either?

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

So is it your position that we shouldn't use fossil fuels either?

On the scale we have done for the last 100 years? No, we most certainly should not.

with the right number of people living a nomadic existence you simply don't need to anyway.

What, in your opinion, is the right amount of people? Nomadic? so we should return to days of hunting/gathering? Or should we not eat meat either?

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

What, in your opinion, is the right amount of people? Nomadic? so we should return to days of hunting/gathering? Or should we not eat meat either?

Since when has meat been a finite resource? Indeed, since when has meat not been an absolutely vital part of the human existence? I can think of no good reason not to eat meat. Above and beyond that animal carcasses provide much, much more than food.

I don't know, exactly, what the right amount of people is, I do know it is a lot less than we have now in most of the western world and further afield than that.

I wonder what the Native population of the States was? Or Canada? Or Australia? I expect their population was kept in check naturally, and sometimes they had too many people and sometimes they did not have enough. It was, how ever, a lot less than what is in any of those countries today.

A Nomadic existence is crucial If you stay in one place too long, you strip it of it's resources and then when you go back the land has not recovered. I think we can learn a great deal from those who live a 'hunter/gather' life.

I suspect the populations were kept in check through, disease, starvation, conflict with opposing nomadic tribes for limited resources and at least here in Canada and northern Us freazing to death not to mention predation form other carnivors?. If life was so great, then why has mankind strived for our present way of life? You may be on the right track in returning to simpler times but I think you may have gone a little to far back in history.

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

I suspect the populations were kept in check through, disease, starvation, conflict with opposing nomadic tribes for limited resources and at least here in Canada and northern Us freazing to death not to mention predation form other carnivors?. If life was so great, then why has mankind strived for our present way of life? You may be on the right track in returning to simpler times but I think you may have gone a little to far back in history.

Yes, i would expect you're right. Much like today really isn't it? Lets not forget that their populations would have flourished as well, due to an increased amount of food available for what ever reason, warmer winters etc etc. THe population would be closely linked to a few key species of animal and plant and they would have cycled on in harmony with each other perpetually.

I'm not sure those nomadic tribes did, or do, strive for our present way of life on the whole, some may, but many do not. There are still tribes all over the world battling to retain their way of life, or preserve what is left of it.

Death is not a bad thing. People are meant to die, people need to die. All the technology in the world today does not prevent people from dieing. Why would it be so much worse to die in Canada from starvation rather than in Canada today from heart disease or cancer? Stress? Getting hit by a car?

I don't think I'm going too far back at all. I would bet you this, if you were placed in a situation where you had to survive in your country's wilderness, you would die. You cannot live of your own country any better than I can off mine. That is just wrong.

Apologies if you're a survival expert, but the statement remains true for the general population.

When I was 18 I spent a month camping and hunting my own food I had a gun and it was one of the hardest expierences of my life, and yet still very rewarding, would I do it again? yes! would I want my son to live like that no. I don't disagree with you, about returning to simpler times, I just know how hard it is to survive and the discomforts involved.

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

When I was 18 I spent a month camping and hunting my own food I had a gun and it was one of the hardest expierences of my life, and yet still very rewarding, would I do it again? yes! would I want my son to live like that no. I don't disagree with you, about returning to simpler times, I just know how hard it is to survive and the discomforts involved.

Good stuff. I don't think I ever said it would be easy. I just think that is a way of life that makes the most long term sense.

Heat, light, protection from the elements, communication, knowledge, comfort, entertainment, transport. I reckon most every thing in your house could be put into one of those categories. I reckon just about every being on the planet enjoys the same luxuries and I believe those hunter gathers did too. Different forms, but the same principle. I wonder if we would loose so much.

Originally Posted by gregs656

Does it really. Since when? I would say that our CURRENT existence depends on using non renewable energy sources, but that does not have to be true. In fact, we are being forced out of this wasteful existence day by day, as those finite resources run out.

We do not need to use fossil fuels to make medicine, we need fossil fuels to mass produce synthetic copies of natural occurring medicine. Incidentally, I'm not a huge fan of medicine either, but that is neither here nor there in this thread.

We cannot get the natural occurring medicine in the amounts that we need.
Incidentally, my grandmother told me of the days before modern medicine was available. Every week there was at least 1 funeral for a kid who died of pneumonia or a staph infection. She told me that there was nothing particularly good about 'the old days'

Originally Posted by gregs656

Do you cherish your computer, medicine and electronics more than the Earth it's self?

If I have to choose between this or going back to living in earth cottages and plowing the fields, and having to produce a dozen kids in the hopes of beating the motality rate: YES.

Originally Posted by gregs656

I'm staggered that people think it's a good idea to support or current existence by pillaging every known resource we come across off this Earth as well as on it.

If noone else is using something, we might as well put it to use.

Suppose humanity ends today and the earth is left lone. What is the good of that? What's the point? The earth doesn't care. It's not alive. It's a ball of hot mud with a teeny tiny thin atmosphere. Nothing we do will hurt it as a whole. We are not even scratching the surface. We're just a mild skin rash.

Originally Posted by gregs656

I don't think it would take much to fix everything. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure that between running out of fossil fuels and climate change most of our problems will be solved. I can only hope that people learn from our mistakes and live in such a way that we take what we need and don't expand to the point we have.

My point is not about energy. I am all in favor of using renewable sources like solar. I wish it were viable today. But even with an abundance of energy, we still need oil to make plastics, or rare earth metals to make electronics.
This is not a matter of scale: either we use those things to allow progress, or we do not, in which case we go back to hunting and gathering.

Originally Posted by gregs656

I do not believe that people should live for ever and we should try and save every one, I am a firm believer in death as a positive force, unfortunately that system is totally out of balance.

Well then by all means, don't have kids.
Individual people should not live forever, but I don't see why our species needs to go extinct. And it will if we don't get off this mudball.

Originally Posted by gregs656

We do not need the water on the moon.

Maybe not for survival here right here right now, but if we go to the moon then we'll be using it nonetheless. Because there is no reason not to.
Really this is what it boils down to: why should we NOT use it, if it is there in abundance.

Originally Posted by gregs656

A Nomadic existence is crucial If you stay in one place too long, you strip it of it's resources and then when you go back the land has not recovered. I think we can learn a great deal from those who live a 'hunter/gather' life.

I agree. That is why we should get off this earth and spread the galaxy. Sooner or later, the yellowstone vulcano will erupt or there will be another species killer meteors.

If we didn't try to better our conditions and survive, we might as well be cows.