This thread ought to be a doozie.

[JMS]

These threads really create a lot of very strong feelings for what I would consider a light hearted forum. I'm not sure what the intent of the original poster is, but my guess, from the title of the post, would be to stir up a hornets nest.

There seems to be at least one post like this going at all times.

I'm not going to participate in them anymore. I come here to relax. I'm here to discuss razors, related issues and some light conversation.

Threads like this are a good way to divide what could and should be a tight knit community.

Just my 2 cents.

I've seen more heated posts in the hone section than I see in the conversation section. And they succesfully chased members off. If a fight or a division is going to occur any excuse will do.

[Sailor]

With your own words, please.

I believe Jesus is exactly who He claimed to be.

The book of John begins: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.
John 1:1

It continues:The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The book of John is the testimony of the Apostle John written to the gentiles (Those who were not Jews)



He told the Pharisee's : “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 That's why they wanted to stone Him because to them this was blaspheme (claiming to be God).



In John 10 24:30....:

Then the Jews surrounded Him and asked, “How long are You going to keep us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” “I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them. “The works that I do in My Father’s name testify about Me. But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”

Have you ever heard of a doubting Thomas? This is where that statement comes from.: But one of the Twelve, Thomas (called “Twin”), was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples kept telling him, “We have seen the Lord!”But he said to them, “If I don’t see the mark of the nails in His hands, put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe!” John 20:24&25.

After 8 days Jesus appeared to them again: Then He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and observe My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Don’t be an unbeliever, but a believer.”

Thomas responded to Him,“My Lord and my God!”

Jesus said, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed.Those who believe without seeing are blessed.” John 20:27-29

I use just the book of John because it makes it easier for someone to check my references if they choose to.

In the Old Testament (King James Version Because I needed to pick just one) the Lord is God, the Lord thy God, or some form of this term is present 1132 times in 292 sections. In the new testament 98 times in 30 sections. The statement "Lord and Savior" speaking about Jesus occurs 23 times in 9 sections also.

Jesus is either exactly who he claims to be or the biggest scam ever. I haven't even touched on fulfilled prophesy, changed lives or all those who have been martyred claiming Jesus is God. One other thing, do you know what the charges were that crucified Him? For the Romans it was sedition, For the Jewish leaders it was blaspheme (Claiming to be God).




This statement is a misconception. By the way , we are all far from "Christlike". Being Christian is a life surrendered to His Lordship. Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.......

So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Acts 11:26 Disciple = Student

[JMS]

I really did not intend this to be a debate on the way others see things or believe so if you could I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter presented in the first post as you see it and understand it. keep the debating to a minimum please.
Thanks

[JimmyHAD]

I really did not intend this to be a debate on the way others see things or believe so if you could I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter presented in the first post as you see it and understand it. keep the debating to a minimum please.
Thanks

Too late for that Mark, this is going in the big book and you're going to at least get purgatory if you don't get the ninth circle of hell over it.

[JMS]

Too late for that Mark, this is going in the big book and you're going to at least get purgatory if you don't get the ninth circle of hell over it.

[elbonator]

What you call the book of John was written long after the facts, copied and / or translated a couple of times, and edited when it was made part of the new testament.

The meaning and the content of the English version in your new testament are far removed from what John ever wrote down, if he ever did. I can accept that it is -a- version of what really happened, just like the other gospels are descriptions written down by someone else.

It is, however, not a verbatim transcription of what Jesus Christ said at a given time.

The way you state this seems to betray a preconceived bias and is an act of faith in itself.

Almost all of your assertions are based on accepting the views of a particular group or groups of scholars. There are very good, and some would even assert, much better reasons to discard much of what these scholars hold with regards to the meaning and accuracy of the gospel accounts. But you can't say any of it is proven.

There is very little that can be "proven" with regards to these accounts - what was removed or edited etc and to use such a phrase is what betrays the act of faith in a certain point of view.

Whether one is of the Faithful or not is an entirely different question from what one believes is the overall historical accuracy and meaning of the gospels. One can reject the message of the gospels and yet still be able to admit that they are essentially very accurate portrayals.

The word "proven" is not a word you can really use regarding these subjects and most good scholars wouldn't make such an assertion and it's hard to seriously accept the point of view of anyone who makes assertions in that way. Everything is a preponderance of the evidence and right now the strongest arguments, IMHO, are against what you assert. And again one need not be a believer to accept that as a scholar.

Best Regards,
EL

[JimmyHAD]

Almost all of your assertions are based on accepting the views of a particular group or groups of scholars. There are very good, and some would even assert, much better reasons to discard much of what these scholars hold with regards to the meaning and accuracy of the gospel accounts. But you can't say any of it is proven.

My favorite, if you could call it that, author/scholar on the scriptures is Bart D Ehrman, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

His latest of many books on the topic is "Jesus Interrupted" here . The blurb on Amazon is;
Product Description

"Picking up where Bible expert Bart Ehrman's New York Times bestseller Misquoting Jesus left off, Jesus, Interrupted addresses the larger issue of what the New Testament actually teaches—and it's not what most people think. Here Ehrman reveals what scholars have unearthed:

• The authors of the New Testament have diverging views about who Jesus was and how salvation works
• The New Testament contains books that were forged in the names of the apostles by Christian writers who lived decades later
• Jesus, Paul, Matthew, and John all represented fundamentally different religions
• Established Christian doctrines—such as the suffering messiah, the divinity of Jesus, and the trinity—were the inventions of still later theologians

These are not idiosyncratic perspectives of just one modern scholar. As Ehrman skillfully demonstrates, they have been the standard and widespread views of critical scholars across a full spectrum of denominations and traditions. Why is it most people have never heard such things? This is the book that pastors, educators, and anyone interested in the Bible have been waiting for—a clear and compelling account of the central challenges we face when attempting to reconstruct the life and message of Jesus. "

I don't know about anyone else but reading about the investigations into the accuracy and the veracity of scripture rather than accepting what they say because I wish it were true is how I prefer to draw my conclusions. YMMV.

[razormike]

Here's you're answer TRINITY have you heard of the TRINITY ?
trinity is this, god takes on THREE beings ( the father (god) the son (Jesus) and the holy spirit ... so the christian answer is yes, jesus is god
but then again it depends on what religion you ask .
to me it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors ...

[elbonator]

I don't know about anyone else but reading about the investigations into the accuracy and the veracity of scripture rather than accepting what they say because I wish it were true is how I prefer to draw my conclusions. YMMV.

To be sure this is something that's very worthy IMHO and it's exactly what I'm referring to. But when you look over much of the scholarly work that's been done in this area you come away realizing that much of the modern claims are just as much a leap of faith to believe as the original claims of the gospels.

None of it can be proven and when you look at all the arguments you come away right back where you started IMHO. The most plausible explanation is the original (again, this is an opinion). Again, one need not be a believer in order to reach that conclusion.

Best Regards,
EL

[hoglahoo]

when you look over much of the scholarly work that's been done in this area you come away realizing that much of the modern claims are just as much a leap of faith to believe as the original claims of the gospels.

None of it can be proven and when you look at all the arguments you come away right back where you started IMHO.

Those are my thoughts as well. There has to be some critical thought at some point in order to be honest with oneself, and reading someone else's critical thought review and/or investigative analysis might play some part in that. And coming back to where one started might be what each person has to discover on their own