This thread ought to be a doozie.

[icedog]

I actually started this thread because this is a question that pops into my mind alot. Sh!t stirring was not my intention.
To the Mods: Please shut this thread down if you believe it will cause serious problems that you would rather not deal with.
To those that answered my question , I thank you. I understand these are deeply personal issues and deeply held beliefs sometimes not easily expressed.

My question was and still is in earnest if anyone else wishes to answer in this thread or in private.

You had the hypocritical gall to call me "puppetmaster" yet here you go with one incendiary thread right after another. Here you go again, still trying to run the same old jive. I see much more shit stirring from you than I do mentoring.

I still have hope for you.

[Stubear]

Faith Definition | Definition of Faith at Dictionary.com

Look at item number 2. Faith is a belief not based on proof. You dont need to prove why you believe what you believe, thats why its called faith. If it had to have proof it would be called "knowledge".

If you believe that Jesus is God, that is faith. If you believe that Jesus is not God, but part of the Holy Trinity, that too is faith. Once you start trying to rationalise it, it becomes more about proof and less about faith.

[Bruno]

Look at item number 2. Faith is a belief not based on proof. You dont need to prove why you believe what you believe, thats why its called faith. If it had to have proof it would be called "knowledge".

If you believe that Jesus is God, that is faith. If you believe that Jesus is not God, but part of the Holy Trinity, that too is faith. Once you start trying to rationalise it, it becomes more about proof and less about faith.

We're confusion faith and religion here. Religion is an institutionalization of key tenets of faith, using facts / objects to base their system on.

If your religion relies on facts (or in this case the gospels) for its dogma, then the institution is hurt when those fact are shown not to be facts but disputable interpretations of selected material. It may not impact your faith, but it sure puts the religious institution in a bind, especially one as dogmatic as Catholicism.

[JMS]

Faith Definition | Definition of Faith at Dictionary.com

Look at item number 2. Faith is a belief not based on proof. You dont need to prove why you believe what you believe, thats why its called faith. If it had to have proof it would be called "knowledge".

If you believe that Jesus is God, that is faith. If you believe that Jesus is not God, but part of the Holy Trinity, that too is faith. Once you start trying to rationalise it, it becomes more about proof and less about faith.

I agree with this which is why I pointed out that quoting scriptures wont cut it., neither will debating other peoples beliefs but rather your own personal story on how you came to believe if you are willing.

[JMS]

You had the hypocritical gall to call me "puppetmaster" yet here you go with one incendiary thread right after another. Here you go again, still trying to run the same old jive. I see much more shit stirring from you than I do mentoring.

I still have hope for you.

Good morning Brad.

[ENUF2]

Really ? If that is the case then Professor Bart Ehrman's body of work is in serious error. Since he studied the available texts in their original languages for the past forty years, first as a student and later as a college professor, I wonder how he could have come to such an erroneous conclusion ? Among the dozen books he has written on the New Testemant ,his best seller Misquoting Jesus: Who Changed The Bible and Why, is over 200 pages on that topic.

To say that believing modern bible scholarship is a 'leap of faith' equivalent to faith that the gospels are accurate doesn't hold water in my view. Assuming Ehrman's work is correct it is a matter of fact. Perhaps that is why he started out as a fundamentalist Christian and is an agnostic today. When he graduated from Moody Bible College they warned him not to go on to Princeton. I guess he should have listened to them.

I do not know the work of Professor Ehrman. I have found video of him in a debate online I will check out as soon as I get a chance. Do you know of his compemporaries? Others who have come to the same conclusions coming at the issue from other directions?
There are others who believe Jesus is God and Savior because of their work. The first 1 I can think of are Lee Strobel ( journalist For the Chicago Tribune and author of "the case for" Christ, .... Faith, ..... the Creator and others. Doctor Dale Tacket "The Truth Project", Josh McDowell "Evidence that demands a Verdict" are 2 others who come to the same conclusion studying from 2 different directions.

To say that believing modern bible scholarship is a 'leap of faith' equivalent to faith that the gospels are accurate doesn't hold water in my view.

If a witness in a court of law is discredited their testimony is throw out and not considered in the ruling of the jury. Should we expect any less from the word of God? If the Bible is lacking then the rest can not be trusted as well. This was one of the Points of Professor Simon Greenleaf Harvard University, know as the father of modern forensic evidence. He was a Atheist trying to disprove the Gospels using modern forensic method used in the courts of law. After his studies he accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. There are many others but there's no point of getting into them at this point.
No matter the study the evidence or the reasoning it will always boil down to a step of faith. Either we trust in Christ as God or we don't. We trust that the Bible is true or we don't. We are to come with the faith of a child a concept I couldn't grasp for the longest time until my 2 year old taught it to me. She has always liked to jump into daddy's arm's (and still does 9 years later) but one day in particular I had my back to her doing something else when I heard her little voice say "Daddy catch". When I looked around that child was already airborne from a top the bathroom sink. She did not hit the ground but my heart raced as I pulled her to myself and that's when I got it. That is child like faith. She jump with knowledge that I would catch her even not looking no fear of the unknown. My step of faith is the same, I trust in the absolute truth of His word that Jesus is Lord (God) and that He was the only one who could die as the sacrifice for our sin but yet live again so that we who have crucified our old selves with Him will live with Him as Lord.

[JimmyHAD]

I agree with this which is why I pointed out that quoting scriptures wont cut it., neither will debating other peoples beliefs but rather your own personal story on how you came to believe if you are willing.

For those who are believers ... I've read sermons by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, G.Campbell Morgan, John Calvin, Martyn Luther, and I could go on and on but the greatest preacher in the twentieth century ...IMHO... was the late Reverend Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones. He left a voluminous body of sermons in print and on tape and was recognized as one of the great expositors of the scriptures.

In his introduction to "Studies In The Sermon On The Mount" he starts out by saying that,"There is nothing more important in the Christian life than the way in which we approach the Bible and the way in which we read it. It is our textbook, it is our only source, it is our only authority. We know nothing about God and about the Christian life in a true sense apart from the Bible. We can draw various deductions from nature (and possibly from various mystical experiences) by which we can arrive at a belief in a supreme Creator. But I think it is agreed by most Christians and it has been traditional throughout the long history of the Church that we have no authority save this Book. We cannot rely solely upon subjective experiences because there are evil spirits as well as good spirits' there are counterfeit experiences. Here, in the Bible is our sole authority."

In 1st Corinthians chapter 2 Paul says that the Holy Spirit confers the gift of faith .... it is not a choice that an individual makes intellectually or emotionally. In the book of Ephesians, chapter 2 verse 8 Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. If that ain't the way it is I am in a heap of trouble. Point is that personal experiences are not a basis for proving anything.

[ENUF2]

I agree with this which is why I pointed out that quoting scriptures wont cut it., neither will debating other peoples beliefs but rather your own personal story on how you came to believe if you are willing.

My own testimony covers pretty much my entire life. I'll try to post a condensed version as soon as possible. That's not something I can think through while working.

[ControlFreak1]

If you are trying to convince me, this does nothing for me. What I am looking for is personal stories of your own "footsteps" if you will. What brought you to this conclusion? To simply point to the bible is an ineffective argument. A personal story on the other hand would be more effective. In other words what you believe inmost to the deepest depths of your being and what transpired to bring you to said beliefs.

You want some of that foney charismatic slop baloney? Too bad. The Lord has provided all that you need, if that won't do then that just won't do. And if you think that the Lord is going to mess around with you indefinitely then here's one for you.
Rev 22:11 - He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Or how's this?

Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

[fccexpert]

Define God. This may seem silly, but there are in fact a number of possible conditions/beliefs that would qualify one as being God.