Thread: Toronto Gun Violence Controversy

As long as this remains a friendly discussion I'm happy to be involved.

Two things - joesixpack mentions about the thugs poor marksmanship. Why end it at thugs? Most peoples marksmanship is poor when they are untrained especially if they are being shot at. If that girl or her mother or some security guard had started firing back then the collateral damage could have been far worse.

Both sides can quote statistics that back up their point of view. Heres one - It only takes one bullet to change an "innocent" (whatever that means, we're all guilty of something) person into a guilty person. Removing the bullet from the equation seems logical to me as humans do not behave rationally all [most] of the time. Also, its not the same as knives or whatever as theres rarely innocent bystanders in a knife fight.

Originally Posted by Rob

How do you do that? If it wasn't guns, it would be knives, if not knives, it would be clubs, if not clubs, then rocks. It's been that way throughout history. The people that are better armed are going to win. So by outlawing guns, you've made law abiding citizens victims. It's not a perfect solution, no. But no one has come up with a viable solution either. Gun laws have not worked in the past. I could look up and qoute all kinds of statistics, but you can look up those also.

This is in no way meant to start an arguement, but a friendly discussion.

What i ment was that handguns are way too fast on the trigger and short tempered people can make damage in split second. Also, you can't run away in front of the bullet, but there is greater chance that the injury from knife, club, rock won't be deadly one... The folowing statistics shows there are too many handguns (or people who don't deserve to own them) in the States...:

Handgun related deaths:

1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled)
* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
* and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

I am very sorry to hear this and similar stories showing that human life has little value for some people...

Nenad

Originally Posted by RichZ

Originally Posted by superfly

That is the (USA) thinking that got the world into trouble. Instead arming everybody, how about taking the guns out of the hands of everyone... But it is not the goverment's interest to do that, so people getting killed everyday...

I just want to say stop blaming the USA for all the problems in the world. How much does your country contribute to nations in need? I am sick and tired of USA bashing. Jealousy does rear an ugly head.

I see I was too fast on my keyboard... Rich, I apologize if I offended you or someone else with my post. My post was poorly constructed tought that I wanted to express quickly with few words, and I really don't know how the word "USA" ended up there... I wanted to say that USA leads in handgun murders in the world. I will edit that post, but keep reference here...

My thoughts on this are somewhere in line of max's post:
Both sides can quote statistics that back up their point of view. Heres one - It only takes one bullet to change an "innocent" (whatever that means, we're all guilty of something) person into a guilty person. Removing the bullet from the equation seems logical to me as humans do not behave rationally all [most] of the time. Also, its not the same as knives or whatever as theres rarely innocent bystanders in a knife fight.

peace,
Nenad

Statistics are what the originater wants them to be... People often reflect on selective statistics to validate their own agenda. That is simply not accurate nor fair for either side of the "gun issue" to do becuse it completly negates the real issues at hand; social issues.

I've allways said, and I still feel that the day a firearm of any kind knowlingly and willfully commits a murder on its own, with out a human behind it.. then and only then I'll give up my guns. Firearms are nothing, just chunks of steel with no life of their own... it takes a human to kill. Thus it is the current value of human life that's the issue not presence or absence of firearms.

I am a holder of a CCW, a couple in fact.. (I can legally carry a firearm in 30 states). If we are going to play the statistics game, I'll reflect on the statistics that show a corresponding effect on violent crime when more civilians are trained, licensed and allowed to carry a handgung:
Florida started the CCW craze in 1987, at that time Floridians were about 36 percent more likely to be murdered than other Americans. After the libral CCW law was enacted the Florida murder rate was equal to or slightly less than the national rate.

In California, counties that issue concealed-carry permits liberally had lower violent-crime rates than counties with restrictive policies; restrictive counties had lower rates than counties with prohibitive policies.
A comprehensive study by University of Chicago law professor John Lott and graduate student David Mustard examining crime data for 3,054 counties found that while concealed-carry reform had little effect in rural counties, in urban counties it was followed by a substantial reduction in homicide and other violent crimes such as robbery. At the same time, there was a statistically significant rise in non-confrontational property crimes, such as larceny and car theft. Apparently many criminals concluded that the risks of encountering a victim who could fight back had become too high.

Most of this data came from recent (2003) reports and the effects are still showing a decline in violent crime where civilians are trained and licensed to carry. The fact that violent crime has dropped in areas where CCW laws were lax has urged all 50 states to re-think their own laws and today only 4 states still have a "Right Denied" policy.

Compairing the US murder rate to other countries is not even an effective retort. Prior to having any gun controls, England already had a homicide rate much lower than the United States. The Swiss with 7 million people have hundreds of thousands of fully-automatic rifles in their homes and the Israelis, until recently, have had easy access to guns. Both countries have low homicide rates. Likewise this doesn't mean more guns less crime.

The U.S. has a higher non-gun murder rate than many European country's total murder rates. On the other hand, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate.

Alas, guns are NOT the issue... They are an easy scape goat and a popular "band wagon" to ride. It's too easy to negate the real social issues such as pverty Vs wealth distribution and just blame the gun. How do you hold an inanimate object responsable when you cant claim "the gun made me do it" as a defense?

Nenad,

Thanks for clarifying that. I hate when the USA gets poked at with generalities. It is like blaming poor people for all the crime, we have a few rich thieves too!

Thanks Kelly, I had collected a whole bunch of statistics about CCW, crime rates, and such, but you said it much better then I could have.

In conclusion, if and when they can make sure the criminals don't have guns, then I will be happy to give up mine. Until then, I choose to keep mine.

I was in TO on Boxing Day and the week after. The news coverage was incredible. It was the top story for almost the entire week. It's sad that this type of ordeal takes place...anywhere. I spend an awful lot of time in Canada and I only wish that gun violence in the U.S. was like that of Canada.

Understand, that I believe that one senseless gun related death is one too many. The gun problem in the U.S. is, in my humble opinion, out of control. However, the forefathers of my country 230 years ago in the Bill of Rights included a "right" to bear arms. It's been there ever since.

Now, I am not a sportsman (i.e. hunter, sports shooter, etc.) so I personally don't need to "bear an arm". If I were around 230 years ago, my opinion may differ. I'm probably going to get lambasted by the hunters (and handgun owners) for saying this or even suggesting that guns are, in fact, a problem here in the U.S...but everyone is entitled to their opinion. One thing for sure is that this issue, at least here in the U.S., will not go away anytime soon.

I fall under the category of those that believe that guns don't kill people, people do. However, laws are not enacted to protect guns, they're enacted to protect people and, in my opinion, the current laws in the U.S. are not doing what they've been enacted to do.

The police in Toronto say that 90% of the guns used in violent crime are illegal guns coming across the border. Outlawing the guns does mean that only the outlaws have the guns. I say, DON'T ban the guns.

The stats don't have as much truth to them if they don't indicate per capita results. Even with this the gun violence in the US is exceedingly large and it's not because there's more guns. Canadians have almost twice as many guns per capita, but there are some systemic differences. Here they're hunting rifles more often, but they're mostly hunting rifles in the US too.

It's a cultural problem IMO. When guns are fetishised through fictional TV, movies and even music, there will be less responsible treatment of the weapon.

In my experience, people have three reactions to firearms:
1. They don't understand them and therefore FEAR them.
2. They hardly understand them and feel irrationally EMPOWERED by them.
3. They have been properly socialised and instructed to RESPECT their power.

That said ... fewer guns does also mean less opportunity for 'accidents'.

I don't know a whole lot about guns. Like I said, I don't own one and I don't have plans to purchase one. When the need arises, I will re-think my current situation.

However, I don't have an issue with guns. I believe that the "right to bear arms" is a constitutional right. I have no problem with that. I believe, however, that our gun laws here in the U.S. need to be more strict than they currently are. I won't say reducing the quantity of firearms is the solution, although i concur with your comment that fewer guns equals less opportunity for "accidents". What I will say is that the laws should be a whole lot tougher on two fronts: procurement of guns and their use in criminal activity.

As someone with a degree in mathematics, I can safely say that 86% of statistics are made up (including that one). As I said before, statistics can be used to justify either side it just depends on the viewers standpoint.

Guns dont kill people its true, but they do make it pretty easy. They're the point and click interface of the murder world.

The first step for me in stopping the criminals getting guns is to strictly control who has access to them. The second step is severely punish anyone caught with a firearm on the street. What will not help is everyone carrying a gun as they do their shopping or whatever; as RichZ pointed out earlier the NY underground would be a bloodbath as would 99% or bars. And if its foolish to carry guns when you're out then what use are they for defence? As far as I can tell, we're not talking about just defending your home against intruders.

Either way less guns = less chance of one being pointed in my face so I'm all for it.