Thread: Enough is enough

So let me get this straight;
If I protect my home as best I can with limited knowledge of an intruders intent, I can be convicted of Murder or hopefully manslaughter for using lethal force to protect myself and my family.

Fearing incarceration for using lethal force, I would naturally start to depend on my tax dollar paid government agencies like the police, but they have no obligation to provide protection to me - an individual taxpayer - under normal circumstances unless the person I'm being threatened by is a proven threat, or a loony!

So, what option is left? . . how many taxpayers have to be threatened before the police have and obligation to protect us? Or, are they only in existence to inconvenience taxpayers during quota time!?

Frankly, I'm a pretty good shot (Shot for the Navy rifle team well enough to challenge the marine team at 1000 yards), but I'm a bit afraid to protect myself in a pinch for fear of spending my formative years locked up for doing the right thing when threatened by someone intent on doing the wrong thing.
How long does this have to go on before something changes?

I know the government doesn't like to admit some of the shady things they do, but is giving the property of a decent guy defending himself from a bad to the bad guy when he fails in his attempt even something that can be rationalized? I'd really like to know how us judges support their decisions in such cases. It's a win win for the criminals, they either get your stuff, or the court gives it to them when they fail!!!

I live in Florida and I do have a concealed wepons permit as well. but here is our law, read this its short and to the point.
http://diodon349.com/Conservative_Co...d_into_law.htm

I would still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than go driving with Ted Kennedy

I personally think that most people weary of violent self defense or guns for protection are lucky enough to not have much experience with the need for these.

Not all of us grew up or live in the same "societies" even if we share the same country or even live in the same city.

Years ago we had a break-in into our appartament during the day. The place was empty and the door was crow barred. Some money was stolen. Unpleasant and shocking but no big deal.

We filed a report with the police officer who came to see us. He told us that this won't even be investigated. Chances of the crook getting caught and convicted are slim to none even if they do.

The door was not repaired that day. I don't believe in the goodness of all men so I did not feel safe and wedged a sofa between the door and the closet wall. No way to get in without demolishing the door. Stronger than any lock.

Good thing I did. That night we had a knock on the door by a guy claiming to be delivering pizza. We were sleeping and my wife woke up first and told him that we did not order any, he tried to convince to open the door.

I woke up hearing all this and ran to the kitchen and grabbed a big cleaver (heavy and sharp), at the time I wish we did not have gun laws in Canada. By the time I got the sofa out of the door and got out the guy was gone.

Why my strong reaction? Because when he came back he was almost sure that the door would not be repaired and that the occupants were home. It was past midnight.

Do you think he knocked first or tried to get the door open without waking us up? I assure you he did not knock because he did not ring the intercom from downstairs so we would buzz him in through the controlled entrance downstairs. He rang some other appartment for those idiots to let him in.

Do you think he would be that brave if he knew that I was most likely armed and willing to shoot him? I think considering his actions so far he is definitely capable of logical thought.

I for one would rather not think of what could have happened to me and my familly if I was "feeling safe in this world" and did not wedge the door with the sofa.

So if you are not for self defense of you and yours then you are living in a safe world until you get less lucky. Then suddenly you wake up and realize that the world is generally safe but not all the time and not for everyone and if you want to improve your chances you will have to pick up the slack yourself.

Look at it this way: No one is guaranteed to be there when you get into trouble except of course you. So that is the only thing that you can reallistically count on as a sure thing, the rest is a roll of the dice.

I find the government taking away its citizen's rights to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property while not taking legal responsibility for providing this protection is a perversion of law. It creates an an illusion of safety but only for the gullible.

Sort of like passing laws that take away civil liberties and allow the goverment to intrude into lives of its citizens without judicial supervision to fight terrorism while leaving the Mexican border wide open for potential terrorists to waltz accross. I see it as a blatant power grab disguised as a counter-terrorism safety measure.

But this is another can of worms.

BTW, a good fiction on this type of scenario is Prelude to Chaos by Edward Llewellyn. In it the US government uses a few bio-terrorist attacks to strip its citizens of their rights while the citizens applaud the actions thinking they are being made safer. The book was published in 1983, way before 9/11 and in its plot some parts of government are staging the bio-terrorism attacks and not real terrorists.

Originally Posted by nunz4

I live in Florida and I do have a concealed wepons permit as well. but here is our law, read this its short and to the point.
http://diodon349.com/Conservative_Co...d_into_law.htm

I would still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than go driving with Ted Kennedy

That sounds like someone finally got some sense in their heads.

Originally Posted by vladsch

I personally think that most people weary of violent self defense or guns for protection are lucky enough to not have much experience with the need for these.

***DISCLAIMER***
Please, no one take offense at this. It's not an insult.

The people I know that want to abolish the 2nd amendment are mostly 'government children'. People who've been forced by circumstance to live in poverty in high crime areas and supported by government assistance programs. Situations like that often force people to rely on the political party that will offer the best funding, medical, and housing programs for them (don't bite the hand that feeds you). Some see the criminals rape, murder, pillage without regard to others and they get sick of the violence. They see the damage and horror that are caused by gun wielding criminals, and how younger and younger children are picking up arms out of desparation and turning into criminals themselves. These people, so close to the crime and impoverishment, see the guns as the evil since, without a gun, the children wouldn't become instant criminals, etc. Others realize that a friend or loved one wouldn't be in prison for manslaughter/2nd degree murder for trying to protect themselves/family from a break in had a gun not been available to them. The political party sees this and instead of educating them, jumps on the bandwagon and begins preaching it as gospel without the facts all for the vote since the impoverished make up a huge portion of the voting age.

Here's something. England doesn't even allow their street cops to carry guns. Recently, on 48 hours I think, there was a special about an american body builder (criminal) who shot a street cop in England. Witnesses led police to a storage facility where they found tons of homemade amunition and arms. I'm told England has some really tough gun laws. But the criminals STILL have guns, only the law abiding citizens and street cops are unarmed and less of a threat to the armed criminals.

I believe the magic phrase folks is, "I was in fear for my life. I thought he was going to kill me." One of the main effects of a major adrenaline dump is short-term memory loss. You simply claim not to remember the events -- the investigators won't be able to prove otherwise.

I live in Oklahoma. We have what we affectionately call the "Make My Day" law. If someone breaks into your house, their life is pretty much forfeit. State legislators are currently looking at possibly expanding the bill to be in-line with Florida's recent "Stand Your Ground" law.

We also have a concealed carry law, but it has been bastardized pretty badly though. My favorite item is any business can place a sticker on their door indicating no concealed weapons. If you have a concealed carry permit and go in, it's a felony. If you don't have a permit, it's only a misdemeanor. Not exactly sure how that works... I guess the guy with the CCW permit should have known better. There was a lawyer who taught a section of the course. While the law is written as "what would a reasonable and prudent person do", she told me my martial arts training would almost definitely be used against me in both criminal and civil court if I ever needed to use a concealed weapon, citing other less-lethal means available for dealing with the situation. So, there's no real point for me to pursue it further.

It's simply not worth the amount of time and money involved to stop a punk kid from stealing my stereo. There's the lawyers, time off work for court, new carpet, paint, etc. Hell, if you want my stereo you can have it. If you want my car, hell take it too -- it's insured. If my family is in immediate danger though, I will utilize whatever means are at my disposal to prevent their harm.

Originally Posted by FUD

England doesn't even allow their street cops to carry guns.

They actually do have quite an armoury, assault weapons and all. They just don't let the beat cops carry them. They have to call out the big guns.

X

It's all relative...

I moved from New Jersey to Arizona about 15-years ago. I'll never forget the stark difference in what the local media was attempting to sensationalize the day I moved. The morning I left NJ the local news couldn't stop discussing banning resturants from serving "sunny side up" eggs (because of the threat of salmonella). That evening the local Phoenix TV station was ablaze with the fact that someone was trying to introduce a bill that would outlaw kids from carrying guns to school! (BTW, eventually the bill passed, so kids are now forbidden from carrying guns to school in AZ... and, AFAIK, the law was repealed and you can now get sunny side up eggs in NJ)

Later that week, on the way to work I had to go around a police roadblock at a traffic light... turns out someone pulled in front of another driver as they were approaching the light. Pissed off, the cutoff driver opend fire as the cars came to a stop at the light. That caused the driver of the car who pulled in front to get out of his car and start firing back. Both received minor wounds and the cutoff driver was charged with a minor offense. (the guy who returned fire was deemd to be defending himself.)

Still later that first week, I went to a resturant on the outskirts of Scottsdale where you ate outdoors in a desert setting... the waitresses carried sidearms (supposedly to shoot rattlesnakes if needed?).

So what did I learn from this back then...

• you have to leave NJ if you like sunny side up eggs!
• driving in AZ is a little different than NJ... whereas in NJ a middle finger was the accepted road rage solution, a gun was (and still is) the weapon of choice in AZ.
• leave big tips in the resturants!

FYI, AZ is a right to carry state and allows carrying openly displayed weapons almost everywhere (except, eg, schools and bars) and concealed weapons if you have a permit. I read somewhere that it is estimated more than 50% of AZ drivers have a weapon either in their car or on their person, and that better than 50% of the concealed permits are held by women! There's a castle doctrine bill in the state legislature which is similar to FL's.

You guys are all correct in everthing you are saying. this is a topic that can go on forever because it is very interesting. Its a crazy world out there where ever you live, and I hope we never expierence a bad situation like someone breaking into our homes (while sleeping etc.) I have trained and taught martial arts and enjoy eastern philosophy, and I believe in peace. But we do not live in a peaceful world, so its best to be prepared and have choices. My family comes first. I have two little girls 6 and 8 .I sleep alot better knowing I have a gun with me. my gun is in a fast release safe under my bed (finger release) so they are safe from my daughters as well. and while I am away my wife is as capable to protect herself as well.. we have had break ins to our car and as far as I'm concerned I let the insurance companies take care of it. I will not shoot someone stealing my car (they can have it)
but I will not hesitate to shoot someone in my house, as far as I'am concerened thats a very personal violation to me, thats just the way I feel ,I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and again it depends on the situation, but I am ready to shoot if I must.

I am in agreement and stated as much in my post. When the break in occurred we were not there. Not pleasant but I did not consider it a big deal, just lost some replaceable stuff.

However, when the guy came back it was not to steal more stuff. He knew we would be home and asleep. I would not have hesitated to shoot him had I owned a gun, or go at him with my cleaver had he stuck around for me to get out. I did run all the way downstairs but he was already gone.

I was not enraged for the stolen money and items. I was enraged that he was intent on doing harm to my familly. Maybe guns wouldn't be a deterent to others, but if I had one I would certainly deter him from harming anyone else in the future.

BTW, thanks for the list of states in favour of self-defense. Now, I know where I want to live if I decide to move to the US.

I might not be able to stop him, but I bet I can break him of the habit.