Thread: A question on Christian Scripture.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

In the gospel of John, chapter 12 it tells the story of Jesus being anointed with a costly perfumed ointment and Judas asked if the money spent would not be better off being spent on the poor, he asked this not because he cared for the poor, but because he carried the money box for the disciples and frequently stole from it.

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 21;37 - chapter 22:6 we find out that Judas has determined to betray Jesus and at that moment Satan entered into him. In other Gospel accounts Jesus at the last supper(Passover) tells Judas to go and do what he has already decided upon and at that moment Satan entered into him.

So we can thank Satan for salvation?

Because you see, The Christ needed to die to be resurrected.

So who made the plan for it to happen? Jesus or Satan?

The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy and that was the plan he had for Jesus and is the same plan he has for everyone else. Christ came that we should have life and have it abundantly. Yes Satan is responsible for the death of Jesus, but he is not responsible for salvation, he cant save himself as Jesus did through his resurrection.

שטן (Satan) appears for the first time in Deuteronomy 22:22 -- ויתיצב מלאך ה' בדרך, לשטן לו (and God placed an angel in the path, to 'stumble' him [Bilam, riding on his ass]).

Satan is an "interrogator"; the "prosecuting attorney", if you will, in the בית דין של מעלה (the High Court of Heaven).

Furthermore, Judaism teaches that each of us has two יצרים (inclinations): יצר הטוב and יצר הרע (good and evil inclinations, respectively). The רמב"ם (Maimonides) taught that when we, in our God-given freedom of choice, choose to follow our "good inclination", God strengthens our ability to continue doing so. Conversely, when we follow our "evil inclination"...

And the Talmud teaches us that, despite what "logic" might dictate, one who tries to destroy his "evil inclination" leaves himself without an opposing force with which to contend... "Character is built through adversity".

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy and that was the plan he had for Jesus and is the same plan he has for everyone else. Christ came that we should have life and have it abundantly. Yes Satan is responsible for the death of Jesus, but he is not responsible for salvation, he cant save himself as Jesus did through his resurrection.

IMO, this is trying to have it both ways.


If Jesus is the Son of God, he would have intimate knowledge of what would be required for salvation.

It must have been his plan all along. For if it was not his plan, then he could not be the son of God. He would only be a man. Only a prophet and not messiah.



To include Satan in any of this would mean that Satan caused the events for salvation. According to biblical apologists, Satan can time travel (as the explanation for Mithraism and Zoroastrianism). So he would know exactly what would happen if he arranged to have Jesus killed. He would know that he would be creating a new religion.

So, if Satan arranged to have Jesus killed, knowing it would create a new religion, connecting the dots would tell me Christianity is a false religion to take eople away from God. After all, it would be a religion created by Satan.



--OR-- Jesus arranged to have himself crucified.



So which is it? Is it the religion created by Jesus? Or the religion created by Satan?

Where in the bible does it say Satan can time travel? He is not all knowing, all seeing or omnipresent. It sounds as if Mithraism and Zoroastrianism are trying to have it both ways.There is no religion created by Jesus, religions are of the devil to keep men busy and away from the truth. What Jesus did was to reconcile the differences(the sin issue) between God and man so that we could have redemption and an open pathway to the Father. That we may have life and have it abundantly. As for who crucified Jesus? All perfection had to do was come to the world and be innocent, the evil of mankind under Satans influence did the rest.

Originally Posted by kevint

Dear Paco; can you further extend your logic to the creation of man?
Genesis 2: 7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

For as you have said man cannot be perfect; is it then that God cannot be perfect?
I do not recall saying that as i do believe a believer will become complete,[perfect], at his ressurection. Which means not all mankind.
You did just say that man cannot be perfect even though it was written clearly to be complete;
Again i do not recall saying man cannot be perfect, he can through
SANCTIFICATION
The process of being made holy resulting in a changed life-style for the believer. The English word sanctification comes from the Latin santificatio, meaning the act/process of making holy, consecrated. In the Greek New Testament, the root hag- is the basis of hagiasmos, “holiness,� “consecration,� “sanctification�; hagiosyne, “holiness�; hagiotes, “holiness�; hagiazo “to sanctify,� “consecrate,� “treat as holy,� “purify�; and hagios, “holy,� “saint.�
Sanctification is most clearly seen in Hebrews. Christ's crucifixion makes possible the moving of the sinner from the profane to the holy (that is, sanctifies, makes holy) so that the believer can become a part of the temple where God dwells and is worshiped (Hebrews 13:11-16; Hebrews 2:9-11; Hebrews 10:10,Hebrews 10:14,Hebrews 10:29). Paul (Romans 15:16; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) and Peter (1 Peter 1:2) both affirmed the work of the Holy Spirit in conversion as a sanctification, a making the believer holy so as to come before God in acceptance
perfect as your Father in heaven is complete; perfect.


let's look a few verses above your quote:

2Timothy¹ But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: ² For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, ³ unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, ⁴ traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, ⁵ having the form of godliness but denying its power
You can argue that it means to be perfect in the coming glory; however that sounds like denying the power; as the Kingdom of God is within you.
Excuse my ignorance, but i do not understand what your getting at.

Can you do me a favor; what words are used here in its original language? ¹⁶ All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,...

Strong's Number: 3956

pa=v

Original Word		Word Origin
	pa=v		including all the forms of declension
Transliterated Word		Phonetic Spelling
	Pas		pas
Parts of Speech		TDNT
	Adjective		5:886,795
Definition
	individually each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything collectively some of all types Strong's Number: 1124 grafh/

now lets just move things to a more convenient order
²⁰ knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, ²¹ for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

¹⁹ And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

that sounds clearer to me, how bout you?

I just quoted that above showing scripture to be of God not man.

It seems as though we will not be able to come to a mutual agreement since we seem to have a basis from different authorities. I'm not saying this sarcastically, but I do not know what you give authority to.

I give Scripture the Final authority and do not question it, now i will research something that seems to be contradictory, but believing it can't be because it is of an all knowing God i must find wiser counsel to rectify this contradiction.

I do not see how i can claim to believe in a Eternal, all knowing, all powerful God and not believe everything He says as Truth. To do so would be saying He is a liar and if He is a liar why would i follow Him.
If I were not to believe that scripture is not totally true how do I know what parts are or are not, what do I use as final authority?
So it is either authoritative or not, I chose to believe it is.

Enjoyed the conversation

It does say All Scripture. I just don't know enough about the history to tell you what was left out(or added)- what about the so-called gnostic gospels. ; or even more stretchy of definitions, all holy books.


Suggestions that sinlessness must wait until the final return of Christ; based upon those related scriptures I have shared so far, seems to me to be denying the power of conversion.

romans³Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ⁴Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
⁵For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


(this is a big one)
Philippians2⁵Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
⁶Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
⁷But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
⁸And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.





As I read this again it still sounds the same. when we adopt the mind of Christ we are in the form of God.

Originally Posted by paco

If I were not to believe that scripture is not totally true how do I know what parts are or are not, what do I use as final authority?

Going back to the adversary. I read early on in the path that their were contradictions in the gospels and other parts of the bible. In the nineteenth century exegesis showed that some of the books of the bible may not have been written by the authors who were credited with those books.

Then I stumbled upon the author Bart Ehrman and read a few of his books. He is a university professor in religious studies. Fluent in the original languages and a specialist in the study or the early manuscripts. He started out a born again evangelical and became an agnostic as a result of his studies.

This really shook my faith in the scriptures. I was torn between wanting to believe and not wanting to be a chump. This is not new. In 1st Corinthians 15 Paul the Apostle addresses those who were being told that there is no resurrection. He says, paraphrasing, if there is no resurrection we are among men most miserable.

Then I was in another thread on this topic some time back and I had occasion to type out a portion of the Reverend Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones introduction to his "Studies In the Sermon On the Mount." One of the best books ever on the topic by one of the greatest exegetical preachers who ever lived. It occured to me that MLJ was a genius and that he had read all of the criticism that I had and then some. Yet he could still say,"All we have is this book, it is our final authority."

Pondering that I came to a peace with myself. I realized that although their may be contradictions and textual questions the message was there and I could have faith that it was true. From that point on I have had no issues with the question. The peace that passes all understanding came to me. Jesus said that we must come as a little child and leave the skepticism behind. The adversary may be responsible for the confusion and I won't be a chump for him.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Where in the bible does it say Satan can time travel? He is not all knowing, all seeing or omnipresent. It sounds as if Mithraism and Zoroastrianism are trying to have it both ways.There is no religion created by Jesus, religions are of the devil to keep men busy and away from the truth. What Jesus did was to reconcile the differences(the sin issue) between God and man so that we could have redemption and an open pathway to the Father. That we may have life and have it abundantly. As for who crucified Jesus? All perfection had to do was come to the world and be innocent, the evil of mankind under Satans influence did the rest.

I said Ãccording to biblical apologists`

Satan time travelling is the excuse given for why Mithraism predates Christianity by many, many years and yet Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25th, was the son of God and was destined to become a messiah.

Funny how that works.




And I am still have an issue with the evils of mankind being a result of the devil. Completely absolves people of wrongdoing by blaming their choices on someone else.

Originally Posted by Desdinova

And I am still have an issue with the evils of mankind being a result of the devil. Completely absolves people of wrongdoing by blaming their choices on someone else.

Satans influence does not absolve you from anything, you can not blame the devil for your wrongdoing, your sin is yours and that is why he does what he can to influence you. Sin separates you from God, Jesus paid for your sin that you can be reconciled to the Father, negating the outcome of Satans influence.