Thread: A question on Christian Scripture.

Originally Posted by kevint

Thank you for you input Paco. I trust these questions will not cause you to repent of your participation

Let's say, for the moment at least, that I am unconcerned with Heaven. Is there more to the meaning of Salvation- beyond the reward of heaven?

In Philippians 2 quoted in post 36 there is a very big question there which seems to point out that just as Jesus was in the form of God, that we too have, or at least can have, that same attribute. So it seems that the answer is Yes, he was god incarnate, and so are we. In fact he says we will( I think this means we can, or should be able to) do greater things(miracles) than he.

Do you mean by perfection that we would be sinless? If so, why would Jesus say sin no more if it cannot be done? Maybe it takes a number of steps / little by little. that's okay.

This post reminds me of something I heard my dad say a long time ago that stuck with me. "At first, a lot people become a Christian because they fear going to Hell. Then, as they learn, they serve God because they want to go to Heaven. As they grow, they want to go to Heaven because they love God and want to be with Him"... I think that sums it up pretty well. Beyond Heaven, there is the fellowship (joint participation) with God and the other saints.

Perfection doesn't have the connotation that we won't sin. Perfect, in this sense means "complete". Jesus was God incarnate in human form, but we are made in the likeness of God. There's a difference, but as we become members of his "body" we become adopted sons who "cry Abba, Father" (Rom. 8:7-15)

It doesn't quite sound that way Paul. All people have a higher level of consciousness than do ants, we are above the level of pure instinct. Is this what is "in the likeness of God" but then we can move up and be likeminded with Christ- those verses seem to point to a higher level beyond normal human existence.

Predestined doesn't mean it WILL happen. Merely that that is what it's purpose was.

It's supposed to do something. Doesn't mean it will. For instance no-one is MEANT to be a killer/murderer/rapist. Yet some contravene their predestination and do so anyway.

Christ was predestined to be the saviour and He became such because He chose to do what the father asked him to.


Just because something has a purpose doesn't mean it'll fullfill that purpose.

Originally Posted by kevint

It doesn't quite sound that way Paul. All people have a higher level of consciousness than do ants, we are above the level of pure instinct. Is this what is "in the likeness of God" but then we can move up and be likeminded with Christ- those verses seem to point to a higher level beyond normal human existence.

Paul said, "be ye imitators of me as I also am of Christ". Being likeminded with Christ doesn't mean we are or become "gods" or have a higher human existence. We still have normal human experiences throughout our lives. We don't rise above that until we receive our reward. Paul said, "... but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." Remember too, that even the Apostle Peter had reason to be rebuked (Galatians 2). So we don't become "perfect" as in without sin and incapable of it. But we are perfect in that we have been reconciled to God and are his "children".

Originally Posted by kevint

I would like you to get into and consider exclusively the words of Jesus. His saying - sin no more- certainly struck me square between the eyes when I first read it many years ago.
I think I am better today than yesterday- I sure dont expect anything to be instantaneous, though I wont not deny that it must be possible.

I think Jesus gave the answer just before he said, "go and sin no more." (Unless of course Jesus expected her to do something she could not, which I suppose is a cruel possibility or maybe he is trying to teach her something ) He said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Has no man condemned you?" She said, "No man, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you"

This is what I attempted to convey simply in my earlier reply: by grace she was saved from the fatal consequences of sin, and by grace she was freed from being bound to sin. By all rights she had been sentenced to death by the law God gave Moses for her adultery, but she was given an option she did not have before - to walk out of the situation with the power to sin no more. This is the power of the permanent change in you that forgiveness in the nature of Christ can effect. Whether you believe that or not (by grace through faith) will determine whether you will actually experience that change and the benefits of that change.

I think that saying of Jesus should hit anyone between the eyes the same way it did you if they have any intent to follow him. If I can trust him that because of what he did, there is no constant cloud of condemnation hovering over me, I can live out that kingdom of God within me (which he gave me when I accepted his offer of forgiveness)

I keep thinking of Paul the Apostle saying something like the Greeks seek wisdom (philosophy) and the Jews look for a sign (the prophecies of the coming Messiah). I did the same thing that Kevin is doing. I came at it from an intellectual point of view seeking wisdom. I'm assuming that is what Keven is doing so pardon me if I'm mistaken in my interpretation.

There is nothing wrong with that approach and maybe most people tend to go that way if they aren't born into a practicing Christian family. The Holy Spirit will work on the individual no matter what their approach is. OTOH, there is not enough emphasis placed on the opposing spirit that is also working.

Since unbelievers think we're nuts anyway, I will mention that the devil, as Peter notes "walks the earth as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour". If you don't believe that the devil rules this world take a good look around you. When Paul says we battle not against flesh and blood only he is dead serious. Watch out for the evil spirits because they are out there.

I've said pretty much all I have to say on this subject for a while, but I'd like to take a moment to say thanks to everyone for a very interesting thread. An additional thanks to those who Jimmy referenced in his last post. I know that several members here think we're nuts, but to let us hash this out amongst ourselves here in the "Nut house" is very cool.

Thanks All!

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I keep thinking of Paul the Apostle saying something like the Greeks seek wisdom (philosophy) and the Jews look for a sign (the prophecies of the coming Messiah). I did the same thing that Kevin is doing. I came at it from an intellectual point of view seeking wisdom. I'm assuming that is what Keven is doing so pardon me if I'm mistaken in my interpretation.

There is nothing wrong with that approach and maybe most people tend to go that way if they aren't born into a practicing Christian family. The Holy Spirit will work on the individual no matter what their approach is. OTOH, there is not enough emphasis placed on the opposing spirit that is also working.

Since unbelievers think we're nuts anyway, I will mention that the devil, as Peter notes "walks the earth as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour". If you don't believe that the devil rules this world take a good look around you. When Paul says we battle not against flesh and blood only he is dead serious. Watch out for the evil spirits because they are out there.

The most evil spirits are those called choice, free will and decision.

The evil in the world comes from the choices we make as we have been given free will.

It's a little convenient to blame the world we live in on the Devil when it is the choices of individuals and collective society that got us here.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I've said pretty much all I have to say on this subject for a while, but I'd like to take a moment to say thanks to everyone for a very interesting thread. An additional thanks to those who Jimmy referenced in his last post. I know that several members here think we're nuts, but to let us hash this out amongst ourselves here in the "Nut house" is very cool.

Thanks All!

I too would like to express my gratitude to all of you for allowing us to have this opportunity for a civil discussion of our faith. My hat is off to the GENTLEMEN of SRP!

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Predestined doesn't mean it WILL happen. Merely that that is what it's purpose was.

It's supposed to do something. Doesn't mean it will. For instance no-one is MEANT to be a killer/murderer/rapist. Yet some contravene their predestination and do so anyway.

Christ was predestined to be the saviour and He became such because He chose to do what the father asked him to.


Just because something has a purpose doesn't mean it'll fullfill that purpose.

Thanks LX I will accept your answer as the meaning of predestined.