Thread: Men need men...

Originally Posted by fpessanha

Yes, good point. But you are from a different generation...

Yes and that is a good point as well. My formative years came before feminism became a popular movement. Women had their place and that men were dominant was unquestioned. There was no such thing as political correctness. I suffered from the 'John Wayne syndrome' so I was always driven to prove my machismo and perhaps that is why I made the life choices that I did. I suppose the changes that have occurred in the ensuing years have made the world a more equitable place but I confess to a certain nostalgia for the past.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My formative years came before feminism became a popular movement. Women had their place and that men were dominant was unquestioned. There was no such thing as political correctness.

Precisely! Thank you!
Feminism is not a fashion statment. It is, somehow, a needed thing. The equality between genders is, in my view, a good thing. But I belive that this equality is only "constitutional", meaning, it is formal and theoetical. Women should have the same rights, privileges and opportunities as men. But this doesn't mean that we are "equal", strictly speaking. There are social roles that are biologically dictated.
But when did men start to give up on some of their male social atributes? When did we bocome so riddled with "guilt" that we decided that our boys should be allowed to grow up without strong male role models?
The result is 30 something year old boys and the Peter Pan Syndrome - men don't want to be men anymore... because thay think that being a man is just a way of being under the control of women but with the added burden of financial responsiblilities. And those that want to be men are considered to be retro-sexual and all that nonsense. That is a problem that my generation is riddled with. Only now do we realize that men need men. Your generation never thought of that - because that was the default setting of your social life! Take a look at a College Campus: what do you see? Women studying and Boys pretending to study! (Sorry for the rough generalization...) Girls becoming powerfull, dominant women and boys becoming boys... only older and with a beer-gut.

We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need. ~ Tyler Durden

Your thread made me think of this... also, we as men, could look to those boys that are around us growing up without dads and reach out to them. Their mothers would appreciate the help and so will our country.

W.B. Yeats applied it to encroaching old age but it could apply to those who are boys that want to claim their manhood ;

"An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,

Originally Posted by AnarchoPhil

We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need. ~ Tyler Durden

Your thread made me think of this... also, we as men, could look to those boys that are around us growing up without dads and reach out to them. Their mothers would appreciate the help and so will our country.

Good point!...
I suppose that we are experiencing a change in paradigm. Maybe it is time we reach out to boys and teach them to be men at the same we, ourselves, learn how to be men.

Originally Posted by fpessanha

I'm a great fan of The Art of Manliness (that I got to know through SRP, by the way...) and I read articles on the site everyday and I've been listening to the podcasts recently.

One of the most important base-line ideas of the philosophy of the site is precisely this: our world is feminized and men today, perhaps more than ever, need other men to be able to be MEN.

So, men need men. This doesn't mean (as a feminist professor I had during my final year at University would say) that we are reacting and entering a new stream of reactionary "machismo". I'm sure that all of us are firm belivers that equality of gender in society is a great thing and none of us would be willing to submit women (manely our women, meaning mothers, daughters, sisters, wives and girlfriends) to the sort of apartheidish society that existed before some of the social revolutions that occured in the 20th century. But the result was a feminization of society due to our idiotic guilt complex...

But the fact of the matter is: men need men so that men can be men. And although we have women in our community (and they were welcomed with great warmth and gentlemanly behaviour from our part - I remember that because I was already a member of this community when the first ladies joined us), this forum is mainly constituted by men. Sure, the fact that this site is essencialy about shaving is one of the reasons that make this such a male-orientated forum. But I do beleive that we cherish this manliness... and that by participating in this global phenomenon that is the uprising of the classic shaving methods we are indeed getting in touch with our masculine behaviours that were somehow missing from our every day lives.

I speak for myself... my brother is on the other side of the planet, my father is not much of a role model though I have a nice relationship with him and I am, at the moment, deprived of friends (being all alone in Belgium at the moment... my very much loved little wife will be joining me shortly, though).

So I guess that this is, to me, more than a group of people that discuss razors in a rather geeky way. This is a group of male friends that I can count on for some support. Sure, it is not close support due to the fact that we are spreaded around the globe and if hell brakes loose, it is highly unlikely that any of us (except if you happen to live close to another user) would benefit from close phisical support. But it is guaranteed that, if something happens and you post something here, you will get replies from your internet buddies. And it is not cheap support either. I beleive that we all keenly read eachother's posts and reply earnestly. If you did a good thing you will be praised. If you did a bad thing you will get flack. And that is such a fantastic thing - this community is a community of instant friends. This is Men needing Men and embracing masculity in a earnest and composed way... I really do belive that I have friends here. And I do belive that all of us have friends here. And we might never get to meet eachother in real life. But it is nice to count on eachother in this nice, rugged way.

Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post... I guess I was feeling a bit lonely. All better now, though!

Hi Francisco,
What a nice post to read. Thank you...I enjoyed it thoroughly and relate. I agree full-heartedly with your (and everyone's points). I was brought up in a family where my grandpa (dad's side) and my dad taught us what it is to be a real man...mostly by example.

You are absolutely right in observing the fact that today's society is driving young men to become more "feminized". They are confused and IMO, this confusion stems (at least partly) from the "politically correct" nature of our societies...we can't say this or can't do that. Ohh, you can't touch/hug her that way or if you look at me a certain way, then...

This "political correctness" is the force that screws things up and forces men into an uncomfortable corner where their manliness is basically stripped from their soul. We don't have to look far to spot trouble on the horizon...Look at kids these days...they are scrutinized at hugging other kids at some schools because some "shmuck" thought that this was sexual harassment. This even made national news for days/months here in the US. lawyers were involved analyzing the pros and cons and why this is acceptable or not. Are you kiddin' me? They are kids. When children (men in particular) have to live up and operate within the confines of rules (which are commonsense to begin with - IMO) that were mainly made to protect women (from being battered, harassed, etc...), then you have a society made up of "puppet men". Translate those rules to innocent kids that mean no harm, then you have a disaster in your hands.

To take this further (and this is just my opinion)...These "commonsense" rules as I like to call them lead men to bottle up their anger inside and at some point lead to undesirable ends (sometimes violent). We, in our family, have taken the "it takes a village to raise a child" approach. We often don't agree with the schools' philosophies in matters of child rearing...as such, all of us make sure that we are actively involved in teaching all the kids in the family (girl or boy) the fundamental values (not rules) that make up a decent "human" being.

In our family, we are also blessed to have women that understand this "principle" of manhood...Women in my family are very supportive of their men and their pursuits that define them as true men...My wife is a prime example. Take shaving as an example: She fully supports me in my shaving endeavours...whether it is satisfying a RAD or taking my time in the AM shaving. She has never criticized me for spending too much or on ridiculous things.

A gentleman is well aware of his place in the world and around the circle of friends/family/strangers/acquaintances/colleagues. He stands up to what he believes, and protects and provides for those he cares for.

We have to release our Men from society's cruel, and rule-driven clutches. Let Men be Men.

I'll stop my incoherent rant now...

Originally Posted by Bruno

As soon as you learn Dutch, you can start watching the M!LF: Men Liberation Front.

It's a show by 2 men who have started the war against all 'new men', and their goal is to turn men into 'real men' again. It's all tongue in cheek, but a really great show, and if I am honest, some of their points are things I agree with. Like when they did something about men who use day / night creams on their face, or who eat 'light' products.

Irony: MLF is also a real organization from France. Their initials stand for 'Mouvement de Liberation des Femmes.... Feminists

I always thought MILF was something different but now i know better

But to the point: Nowadays men are so categorized into metro-, retro- and whatever types or groups. I am afraid that soon uncategorized, unfashionable, uninteresting, untrendy men like me will be just another category. That is why i'm beware of the term 'real man'. Do not want to get categorized.

This is always an interesting topic for me--I actually did my thesis masculinity as it's presented in modern fantasy.

Just a few thoughts, and feel free to disregard them; most masculinity theorists wouldn't agree with me either:

-I can't buy that gender is biologically dictated; SEX is biologically dictated, but not the gender roles that people undertake. If this wasn't the case, you would never have any "feminized" men--nature wouldn't allow it.

-That said, I think some generalizations can be drawn from biology. Men are often more assertive, more competitive, and more prone to assert this traits publically. I think the problem we have found in our society is that as the roles of women have changed (which actually began in the late 1800s, as they got the vote, etc), men have found that their gender role--which was predominantly based around dominance--no longer functions.

-As such, the majority of men are caught between the two extremes: John Wayne and metrosexualism, and they have a hell of a time deciding where they belong because society truly does lack that kind of male mentorship that is necessary to fostering strong, independent men (and women). My opinion is that most guys fall somewhere in the middle, and that we all need to learn to express ALL of our emotions. Society frowns on open anger, tears, and (at times) expressions of love. We need to learn to express these, or men are condemned, IMO.

-All this said, through the course of my research and writing, I have come to my own conclusion that, socially, there is not actually that much difference between the ideal masculine and the ideal feminine. Granted, they look different, smell different, and shop for different things, but I firmly believe that a strong woman, like a strong man, is based around loving, caring, mentoring, and protecting. For men, believe this creates the following categories: the guardian (soldier--though I differentiate a bit in my thesis), the father, and the martyr.

-It is also my firm belief that while we don't (well, most of our the predominant westeren European cultures) tend to have defined rituals and rites of manhood--though perhaps we should--you can define when someone has reached certain stages by behaviour. When you're ready to take full responsibility for your actions, you're an adult. When you're ready to put someone on equal footing to yourself, you're ready to get married. When you can put someone else's needs ahead of your own, you're ready to be a father.


Now, in direct response to the original post, I truly believe that mentorship and comraderie between men are ESSENTIAL parts of forming one's masculinity. Once that gender is firmly established, I believe those bonds are more for emotional support than anything. For those that have lost touch, and spend more time with their wives than anyone, great. If that works for you, I don't see a problem. Women are not a corrupting force. There is, however, something to be gaining, particularly for young men, in the spending of time amongst their own.


Please keep in mind before you start flaming that I'm not claiming to be an expert in this; my thesis mainly taught me about how little I really know about anything. These are just conclusions I have drawn from my own time and research: what makes you male hangs between your legs, but that is only tangentially related to what makes you a man.

Thanks, Vulcan500rider!
That was a great post. I understand and agree with what you say. Gender roles and sex are not one and the same. Sex is biological and gender is social. And worry not, no body will tar and feather you!
It is true that there is no problem with spending most of our time with women or being brought up by women. That will not make us women - because of that thing that hangs between our legas... Nor, potentialy, will it make us feminine or feminized. But you said it yourself - there is much to be gained from spending time among our own gender, that being, spending time with men (fathers, friends, fellows from a same community...) not only because it is a way of communicating and learning (and learning is very important) but because it might help us define what is, roughly, our objective role in present day society.
But I do belive that men are losing touch with what being a man is all about. And nevermind what it is all about. I certainly cannot define what a man is supposed to be! But it generates this dangerous thought: "I'm not sure what a man is." That brings angst and doubt and will probabily tend to be a self-destructive situation. Not that one will commit suicide or anything... but will probably linger on in a bad job, in a bad house, with bad friends... It is difficult for me to explain because I certainly am not an expert in sociology. I'm a composer, so I'm just a dilletante on this subject.
The fact of the matter is: if you ask me what a real man is I will not be able to tell you. However, I feel that being here, talking to you and all these other men that are gathered here because of a common interest is a good experience. We are - as you say - spending time (even if in a virtual environment) with other men and we are all the better for it. That is the main thing. And that is why I like this place.

Just a thought based on what I perceived a man was supposed to be when I was a teenager as opposed to my perception 50 years later. In my days of ironworking I knew some two fisted 'John Wayne' types who would fight at the drop of a hat and they would drop the hat. As a teenager I would have considered them a man's man.

In my adulthood I realized, observing them closely, that childishness and selfishness were the traits that were most evident in their personality. A man's man to me, once I became and adult, was a man who met his responsibilities to family, society and in the workplace. Testosterone alone doesn't define it.