Thread: An observation on the unemplyoment rate.

No No, gugi is correct that was improper english.. The point still stands, there are many people in this country who are able to work yet refuse to do so.

Point 2 he is also correct. There are business men whose model is to make whatever widget they produce using any means possible to drive down costs.

Point 3 somewhat correct. Many machinists outside of the union struggle with negotiating their wages. This is the USA you are worth what you can get. I do know many who are underpaid. (IMO) Often the reasons for staying at the less than stellar company have to do with other life style choices. Is it really worth driving the extra 50 miles a day to move from 40k to 55k? Other than the pay they are content with their lives and tend to live accordingly.

Funny thing though, manufacturing creates wealth, banking does not.

Jeff

Well, if recent history is a guide one banker's wealth is another man's loss in a foreclosure, short sale, or tax to be paid for bailouts
Now if people start acting as rationally as the businesses and start strategic defaults en masse this can change a bit, but it's unlikely to happen.

Banking's important too, though, without it most businesses would not have the capital to invest in whatever they need to invest, and without the convenience of things like commercial paper the administrative costs to most medium and big business (which is actually the one that makes most of the wealth and jobs) would be much higher and the whole economy will be a whole lot sluggish.

From everything I've seen I've concluded that it is pretty much the same thing no matter which profession. There is always a demand for the people who are really, really good at something. It doesn't much matter if it's machining, plumbing, business consulting, teaching, etc...

The only difference is that some professions are more local, so people in them are more sheltered from having to compete with their peers worldwide.
The other thing is that the manufacturing has got the largest increase in productivity over the last 50 or so years. It's not that it has shrunk, but that a lot of it has become automated and is much less labour intensive than it used to be.
It's pretty much analogous to the industrial revolution, the likelihood of manufacturing jobs getting back to their old levels is the same as the likelihood of crafts becoming the main means of production of goods.
Yes, you can still buy all your clothes and shoes bespoke and they will certainly be of higher quality than the mass produced made in china/india/thailand/etc. versions, but if you are middle class you cannot afford it.
I don't think there is a large percentage of SRP members who wear daily Allan Edmonds shoes and these are only about $300, made in USA. I bet most wear stuff that's made abroad, likely in asia, so it is a matter of our own choices as consumers too.

Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

No No, gugi is correct that was improper english.. The point still stands, there are many people in this country who are able to work yet refuse to do so.

I used to believe that too. I can tell you first hand, that at least where I live, that is not the case. There are far less jobs here than people willing to work.
My attitude about a lot of these things has been changed dramatically in the last several months.

Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

Point 2 he is also correct. There are business men whose model is to make whatever widget they produce using any means possible to drive down costs.

Why is everyone so angry at business lately? Let's face it - if not for the business being profitable, you wouldn't have a job.

Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

Point 3 somewhat correct. Many machinists outside of the union struggle with negotiating their wages. This is the USA you are worth what you can get. I do know many who are underpaid. (IMO) Often the reasons for staying at the less than stellar company have to do with other life style choices. Is it really worth driving the extra 50 miles a day to move from 40k to 55k? Other than the pay they are content with their lives and tend to live accordingly.

I don't know what your job market is like, but earlier you stated that there weren't enough qualified machinists to go around. Now you're saying that many of them are underpaid. Those statements are in conflict - if there is truly a shortage of qualified people, companies that need them would pay whatever it takes to get them. Look at the boom in North Dakota. Jobs that would be minimum wage here start at $18-$20 out there, because of a severe labor shortage.

Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

Funny thing though, manufacturing creates wealth, banking does not.

I am confused by this... Could you please define "wealth" in this context?

Looks like I'm moving to North Dakota... How much does an acre of prime North Dakota land go for these days? All I want's an acre.

As for my thoughts on unemployment numbers: Better to close my mouth and be thought a fool, than to open my mouth and prove it...or something like that.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

Looks like I'm moving to North Dakota...

Ok... $18-20 is maybe a bit of a stretch, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anything in Williston that pays less than about $12/hour.
If you have any skills at all, it's much higher than that.

Here's a job opportunity at $70,000/yr starting salary, for those who don't mind getting a bit dirty, and risking their life a bit In Appalachia, New Coal Miners Are Scarce - Businessweek

Originally Posted by gugi

Here's a job opportunity at $70,000/yr starting salary, for those who don't mind getting a bit dirty, and risking their life a bit In Appalachia, New Coal Miners Are Scarce - Businessweek

I tried to get a job in the mines but didn't pass the initial health screen due to chronic bronchitis.

I retract my previous plans then. I can work for twelve dollars an hour any day of the week, without a boss, a schedule, or a rule book. Maybe not every day of the week, but definitely any day of the week...

Being someone who has been unemployed and searching for work for the last three years, I take some offence to being called lazy. I was laid off from a rather large machine shop in Feb 2009 and have been able to get a few temp jobs in between, but for the most part work has been scarce. Here in Ohio, unemployment is bad. I have waited in line for 2 hours just to pick up an application for a job that paid minimum wage. I average around 20 applications/resumes a week. There are so many people out of work here that companies aren't filling open positions, knowing that if they wait long enough, the perfect person with the lowest amount of risk involved will eventually apply. Yes there are lazy unemployed people out there. My experiances however are that most of the unemployed are far from lazy here.

Originally Posted by HNSB

I used to believe that too. I can tell you first hand, that at least where I live, that is not the case. There are far less jobs here than people willing to work.
My attitude about a lot of these things has been changed dramatically in the last several months.

OK see if I can clarify a little bit. I live in a state which relies on immigrant labor to pick some of our crops. That I do not entirely object to. I have a nephew who is now 21 and collecting a state disability because he is ADHD. I have known this child all of his life and love him second only to my own daughters. He is capable of working, strong and bright. However he tends towards the "the world owes me a living" point of view. We have 3 counties north of here with 12% to 13% unemployment and high rates of welfare. Our governor authorized the use of convicts to harvest our apple crop because there were not enough workers to do the work. Illegal immigration crackdown seems to be part of the culprit. Otherwise the apples would have frozen and rotted on the trees. The pay to do the work is actually pretty fair, at least one grower pays $150 per day. It is however hard work and requires a person to travel to earn a wage. I do not support illegal workers, I also do not support people who are capable of working collecting a government paycheck when there is actually work to be done. I have a good friend who was found to be disabled after breaking his neck at work. He did get the repairs done but could not just sit around and could not perform his previous job. He retrained himself and opened a small business and now makes a reasonable wage.

Why is everyone so angry at business lately? Let's face it - if not for the business being profitable, you wouldn't have a job.

I am not angry at business at all. If it sounds that way I apologize. I work for a multimillionaire who employes 150 people and make a reasonable wage. I would always like more, but I am not a capable businessman, so I work for one.

I don't know what your job market is like, but earlier you stated that there weren't enough qualified machinists to go around. Now you're saying that many of them are underpaid. Those statements are in conflict - if there is truly a shortage of qualified people, companies that need them would pay whatever it takes to get them. Look at the boom in North Dakota. Jobs that would be minimum wage here start at $18-$20 out there, because of a severe labor shortage.

I should have qualified this a bit. Prior to the recession it was VERY difficult to hire a GOOD machinist. After the recession most good machinists are employed in this area. Now on to the difference in wages. This is a little more difficult. There are a number of shops who want 20 years of experience and wish to pay an entry to mid level wage. There are always entry level people willing to work for $12 an hour and that is OK with me. Where we run into the biggest problem is many of our local shops have been burned. How you ask. They hire a man who claims 20 years of journeyman experience and has the card to back it up. They pay the high wage only to find out he can't do the work. Problem is it was all running a single machine in Seattle, and that is the extent of his skill. Yet he claimed to be able to do complex set ups. Another factor is cheap labor from Asia. People are more than happy to buy a product from China (or where ever) at a 50% discount, even if the quality is lacking. People want what they want, and they want it now. Often are unwilling to save up the extra money and wait the extra time to make the purchase. For the record the wages are beginning to climb

I am confused by this... Could you please define "wealth" in this context?

Wealth is the abundance of valuable resources or material possessions. Wealth is created and is not a finite resource. It should not be confused with money. I believe money can be viewed as a means of moving wealth from one person to another. A pure barter system is unwieldy at best. Say I make a razor you want from $10 in material, $20 in outside service and 10 hours of my own. You want the razor but only have half a side of beef to trade. My freezer is stocked already. So it works better for you to trade the beef for $750. Now you give me the $750 for a tool which should last a lifetime and I go pay my mortgage. In the end we each gained a valuable resource and we both created wealth. Neither of us had $750 invested, yet in the end both gained $750 worth of material possession.

I strongly urge you to do some research on the creation of wealth. It would be educational to learn which industries create wealth and which industries redistribute wealth. I should say that I am more than happy to redistribute some of my wealth for the services I choose not to do myself, (dentistry for one).