Thread: Someone explain this to me.

Originally Posted by ats200

The problem for me is that the Government should not need anything outside of what is required to protect and serve the people. There should be no committees, research centers, etc. That should all be private and privately funded.

It's the same concept regardless of who is doing it and I wouldn't volunteer for it either way, but I just have strong feelings about in what the government should be involved (and what it shouldn't).

The problem is there are many areas of research the private sector will not fund for one reason or another and some types of research that are too expensive so the Govt steps in here. If the Govt didn't get involved there are many medical devices and procedures that simply would not exist.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

...too expensive so the Govt steps in...

And yet I wonder why the Govt is speeding headlong toward financial insolvency

Ahhh the old addage comes to mind...

"Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Come on gents seriously, some of us are old enough to remember when Insurance itself was voluntary, so were seat belts, infant seats, smoking in a car even, it was the insurance companies and their lobbyists that changed all that.. If you seriously think these devices will continue to be "voluntary" yer smoking the wrong pipe

Originally Posted by gssixgun

yer smoking the wrong pipe

And now we have a proof that 'wrong' is relative

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The problem is there are many areas of research the private sector will not fund for one reason or another and some types of research that are too expensive so the Govt steps in here. If the Govt didn't get involved there are many medical devices and procedures that simply would not exist.

I truly believe it would still exist but there's really no way to validly argue either side of this. If the private sector isn't funding something important, it's because the government is. If there were no government run education system, would there be no schools? Yes, there would be, and I would almost guarantee they'd be far superior. I believe this same concept would translate into any sector.

If there's no private demand for an industry, it shouldn't exist.

I find all that government vs. private business bashing ridiculous.

The free market is great at doing profitable stuff efficiently, the government is for doing stuff that need to be done even if they are unprofitable, just because that's part of having a functioning society. Not everything in this world is based on making profit.

Do you think if the government wouldn't be providing things like laws, judicial system, or law enforcement those won't exist? They will come from private entities and would be far superior for those who can afford them and suck really badly for those who can't.

I think you're confused on what exactly is meant by government vs. private business.

Government does have a use and a reason, they are what you described. Laws, enforcement, judicial, legislative, etc. All of these duties are clearly outlined in documents made long ago.

Capitalism comes into play with everything else. Reverting back to education which I think is a good example, of course some private sector schools would be better than others and some would be astronomically priced. But there would also be a market for good, average schools. Does everyone deserve an education? Yes. Is it currently being provided to them? No.

I'm not far out of high school, about 5 years, but I know for a fact that they hand out diplomas like candy on Halloween. I have to admit that many of my friends, and myself included, did not deserve to graduate. The system is a joke and needs to be fixed. If you don't put in the time and work, you fail and you dig ditches. If you're committed and intelligent, you go on to something else. It's not reasonable to tell every kid that they can be an astronaut or lawyer - it just wont happen.

(that turned into more of an argument about our schools, but this was the result of the public, government run, system)

Originally Posted by ats200

I think you're confused on what exactly is meant by government vs. private business.

Government does have a use and a reason, they are what you described. Laws, enforcement, judicial, legislative, etc. All of these duties are clearly outlined in documents made long ago.

Sure, if you want to look at the specific case of the federal government of the USA instead of considering the role of a government in the philosophical sense, you may even end up with an extremely narrow understanding of something specific for over 200 years ago. But if you want to be strict purist you better give up your internet or phone service in favor of communicating through letters only.

Originally Posted by ats200

Reverting back to education which I think is a good example, of course some private sector schools would be better than others and some would be astronomically priced. But there would also be a market for good, average schools. Does everyone deserve an education? Yes. Is it currently being provided to them? No.

Last I checked there were plenty of fantastic private schools, some of my friends teach there. May be you could've spent the 50,000/year tuition to go to one of them instead of to the inferior government system and could've had different results.

I apologize, I thought we were referring to the US whose governmental basis was pretty much a revolution for the modern world. Maybe if it had stayed as it was intended instead of growing into the unstoppable monstrosity it is today, we'd be more successful as a whole. Of course it's different when you look at the concept of government in a philosophical sense, there are numerous different types that can be argued.

Do you know why there are private schools? Because public schools suck and someone wanted to change things. If there were no public schools, there would be affordable private schools and it would have a huge demand and be very profitable.

Look at the higher education industry. There are plenty of options for all ranges. Some are state schools and some are private. I could have gone to Harvard and been in debt for my entire life, a cheaper private school, maybe for an associates degree, or a state funded school for a degree far inferior to one from Harvard.

Let's face it - rich people will always have an advantage and lower and middle class people will always struggle. It's true today, it was true in the 20s, and it'll be true 50 years from now. The difference is that the government has absolutely no business in any private industry and I'd of much rather paid to go to high school and actually received some sort of benefit from my classes rather than getting it for "free" and wasting all those years. I have no problem being raised middle class, but I'll work my ass off to try to make sure my family has it a little bit better when that time comes.

Should the government be controlling our currency? No. absolutely not. The list keeps getting bigger.

Originally Posted by ats200

Do you know why there are private schools? Because public schools suck and someone wanted to change things.

Uhm, you may want to try again, perhaps after consulting with a history textbook. Private education predates public education by thousands of years.

Originally Posted by ats200

If there were no public schools, there would be affordable private schools and it would have a huge demand and be very profitable.

I don't now of any single piece of evidence that would support such assertion. At the same time you can have you hearts desire of cases historical, and contemporary, when the government has not been involved with education and they are characterized by the lack, not the availability of

Originally Posted by ats200

Look at the higher education industry. There are plenty of options for all ranges. Some are state schools and some are private. I could have gone to Harvard and been in debt for my entire life, a cheaper private school, maybe for an associates degree, or a state funded school for a degree far inferior to one from Harvard.

Indeed look at it - plenty of options, yet high quality affordable education is lacking. The only exception is the university of california system, which is government. The worst buy - the bottom tier 'for profit' institutions which are bordering with a fraud/scam.

Do you want another example - straight razors. Purely for profit driven market and guess how many people buy the likes of zee-pk and douglas cutlery?
The difference with education is that the choices of the parents affect the rest of the life of their children and we're talking huge fraction of the population.

Originally Posted by ats200

Let's face it - rich people will always have an advantage and lower and middle class people will always struggle. It's true today, it was true in the 20s, and it'll be true 50 years from now.

The free market dynamics produces huge disparities, that seem to only increase with time, so the more you're screwed the more you'll be screwed, until the society simply falls apart. In other words the equilibrium you're assuming does not exist and unless you start in the upper classes you are going to be getting worse (that's statistically, of course, which is the model for a society).

Originally Posted by ats200

I'd of much rather paid to go to high school and actually received some sort of benefit from my classes rather than getting it for "free" and wasting all those years.

Before just going with the purely ideological assumption that you'll be better off, you really want to look at the distribution of the local taxes which are the ones that fund education in most places. Chances are that you were subsidized by those in the higher income brackets, so if you simply take your (actually your parents') money that went into the education it'd only be enough to purchase worse education than what you received.


BTW nobody is forcing you to live with the government controlled currency. Where I live there are alternative currencies that the local hippies have been using for at least twenty years. I hear other places in the country have such things as well. And as of several years ago there are internet currencies as well. If the government controlled currency was such an evil you'd think that the free market would've taken care and made all the alternative local currencies expand to national.
Or people can be simply self sufficient and for the few things they are not do bartering. It's not like it's never happened before.