Thread: Fathers' Rights in Child Custody and High Conflict Divorce

Originally Posted by osdset

In a way I can see where the court was coming from, let the kids have some stability in terms of where they live, and let the adults do the moving, having said that, it's a weird set up.

+1. I've heard of similar arrangements. It is probably one of the more sensible things to do to minimize stress on the kids.

Originally Posted by christophe

Also, from those who divorced, are in the process of doing so, or went through a very hard (conflicting) time with their partners:

what topics would you advise a soon-to-be-engaged or soon-to-be-married couple to seriously discuss ??

(for example, career vs family.... etc.)

From the top of my list:
1) do you want to have kids. If yes, how many and when.
2) do you see yourself settling down or seeing other countries for a couple of years.
3) do you think financial security is important or are you willing to take risks.
3b) if things go wrong and you get poor, can you accept that.
4) what are your dreams in life. where do you see yourself in 10 or 20 years time.

I know many people who failed to discuss this, because 'they loved each other so much'.
As joe said, the wrong way to do this is to present it as a simple list of bullet points, expecting a simple answer.
First of all, people are more complex than yes / no questions, and also people have a tendency to say what the other person wants to hear.

The right way of approaching this are (imho) long conversations under the stars, or in front of the fireplace, or anywhere else you don't have to pay attention to anything else for a long time. And don't just ask questions. Talk about your ideas and principles. Let your other partner talk. Open ended questions are best because they allow the other person to answer without predefined answer.

When you are discussing marriage, forget about love for a while. Love does NOT factor into the equation at that particular time. Treat it like going into business with a person you'll be working together with, 24/7. Do the practical details work out or not. If you're not on the same page about all important things, the enterprise will fail.

One more thing: your religious beliefs should match, obviously.

I helped my brother a divorce and it was very difficult. You have given fantastic advice. I would say the number one thing, as a male, is to stay calm. The court system sucks in a lot of ways because they are clogged and do not have time to get to you right away, They want to make sure that there is not going to be some wacko male shooting the wife and harming the children. It is understandable.

Always fight for the kids. I know a gentleman that did not fight for the children because he had a high pressure job and was the sole breadwinner so he though it would be best for the children to live with their mother. Fast forward eight years. She is remarried and wants to move three thousand miles away and the judge saw that he did not fight for the kids tooth and nail and let her do it!

The number one rule is always, always do your best to do the right thing. If your ex beats you up to the kids don't engage. I can tell you from experience that when they turn about 16 or 17 they will hate the parent that does it.

later,
Richard

Originally Posted by Bruno

One more thing: your religious beliefs should match, obviously.

Not here. It is very common that people within the same family share totally different religious beliefs (and political opinions as well). It is not unusual that people do not even know what their partners believe. For example, i'm an agnostic and my wife, although namely Christian, rather believes in Nordic Gods (that were really no Gods afterall).
The question of religious belief is highly personal. Not something to make a number and not much to discuss. Just something you believe personally, inside. People are people whatever they believe or not.

Originally Posted by riooso

I helped my brother a divorce and it was very difficult. You have given fantastic advice. I would say the number one thing, as a male, is to stay calm. The court system sucks in a lot of ways because they are clogged and do not have time to get to you right away, They want to make sure that there is not going to be some wacko male shooting the wife and harming the children. It is understandable.

Always fight for the kids. I know a gentleman that did not fight for the children because he had a high pressure job and was the sole breadwinner so he though it would be best for the children to live with their mother. Fast forward eight years. She is remarried and wants to move three thousand miles away and the judge saw that he did not fight for the kids tooth and nail and let her do it!

The number one rule is always, always do your best to do the right thing. If your ex beats you up to the kids don't engage. I can tell you from experience that when they turn about 16 or 17 they will hate the parent that does it.

later,
Richard

I don't know what the situation is in the USA, and things have changed somewhat here, but I experienced a lot of prejudice when I took on custody of my two children 29 years ago, a lot of people especially women were incredulous, suspicious, and even hostile at the idea that a man should be bringing up children alone, I received a number of snide remarks by mothers at my kids school, who would not believe that a mother would desert her kids unless the father had a) kicked her out of the family home or b) subjected her to sustained assaults. The fact that I had been ruthlessly vetted by the court and welfare systems, and was required to go above and beyond to prove that I was a responsible adult seemed not to matter.
At that time custody was awarded to the woman virtually 99 times out of a hundred, I was the 1%, times have changed, along with attitudes, more so I believe because these days more and more women seem prepared to exit the family home and leave the kids behind.

I live in California and I can tell you that the record for men that fought for their kids and got favorable custody 20 years ago was 75% in my county. You are right about the fact that you have to prove "above and beyond" that you can be a good father. That is why it is absolutely essential that you remain calm and not make one mistake and show aggression....ever!........not once!

On your remark about the man winning the children. Isn't life strange? When my brother got the kids everyone assumed that the mother must have been a POS because that was the only way that a man could get custody.

Originally Posted by Bruno

One more thing: your religious beliefs should match, obviously.

My wife is Catholic, I am Southern Baptist. We had to meet with a Priest before we would be allowed to be married in the Catholic Church.

We agreed that the kids would be brought up Catholic. I knew that I wouldn't have invested the necessary time to it. I'm not nearly the church goer my wife is. We have some religious differences, but we know exactly what they are and we can argue them without anyone getting upset. We agree to disagree.

I also agreed to children. We compromised on how long to wait, her defying the church by using birth control.

It all worked out, going on 36 years now.

Originally Posted by riooso

...When my brother got the kids everyone assumed that the mother must have been a POS because that was the only way that a man could get custody.

This is a very important point because it illustrates how bias, not just in family court, but in society as a whole is harmful to both men and women. In the course of a divorce, the parents' primary focus should be the welfare of the children. It is equally likely that a father could be the more stable parent or the better provider. If the mother recognizes this, and keeps the children's interests paramount she would agree to grant primary custody in a shared custody agreement. However, the social stigma of a woman losing custody is so great that it is unlikely that she will be capable of acting in the children's best interest. In this situation, the social pressure works against the children because it penalizes the adults for acting in the child's interest.

Presumptive shared custody is the starting point in custody proceedings in only a few states. It should be the norm in all states. And people shouldn't judge a woman who relinquishes sole custody. She may have been acting in the children's best interests, which is what we would hope all parents would do.

Originally Posted by riooso

...

The number one rule is always, always do your best to do the right thing. If your ex beats you up to the kids don't engage. I can tell you from experience that when they turn about 16 or 17 they will hate the parent that does it.

later,
Richard

ANOTHER great point that deserves repeating. The desire to give the kid(s) your side of the story is almost irresistible. This is why it's important to have a therapist.

In my case, I told my son "You know that your mother and I don't get along, but we both love you very much. As far as I'm concerned, you have every right, and every reason to love your mother. I don't want you to think that you have to be mad at your mom to make me happy." That was all I ever said to him and all I ever will say to him until he's much older and asks directly.